On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 07:45:18AM -0400, Eric P. wrote: > > On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 12:07:10AM -0400, Mathieu Trudel-Lapierre wrote: > > Agree, but I don't think the fact that it's unsafe makes it obsolete. > > I'm 100% for gun control, but calling a gun unsafe because you shoot > yourself in the foot isn't really accurate.
Guns are unsafe. That's what they are for. You can kill things with them. You need them when that's your purpose, or for credible threat of same. But when that's not your purpose, they should be out of the way. You should have the option of using something other than a gun when you, say, want to tie your shoelaces. > Some people shouldn't hold hot coffee in paper cups, either. > It's fashionable to blame the language for poor programmer behaviour > but it is a cop out. The first thine I do when starting a programming project is to choose the programming language, based on technical characteristics and the nature of the project. If I choose an unsuitable language, it *is* my fault. > > In the same vein, I suppose that assembly is unsafe, obsolete too. Unsafe, yes. Obsolete, maybe. There are a few situatinos where it is ideal. For everything else, it's obsolete. > This whole conversation is always seated in the theoretical and > abstract imaginary world of some perfect language that will correct > all bad programmer behaviours. There isn't such a thing. > Frankly, experienced C programmers get stuff done. It's not going > anywhere anytime soon. Yes. There are much better languages for just the things people use C for, and they haven't succeeded in becoming widespread. The first-mover advantage in a market is huge. I never said C was going away anytime soon. > > > I think not restricting it is perfectly acceptable. People know to be > > extra careful when they have to write C, and to get code reviews and > > write tests. Or at least I hope they do. > > I think you're description of the situation is inaccurate. It's not a > question of extra careful. In C, you cannot be lazy and imprecise with > little or no design. If you're not precise, careful and thoughtful, > you're not a professional in whatever language you're using. > > > we're still in full agreement there. C isn't fit for all jobs. Perhaps > > it's getting chosen a little too fast in many cases, but then, it > > *does* deliver, despite the high price to pay as a developer for > > You're entirely correct. > > > It's a far better idea to use <insert well-known language> than > > another niche language, even if the other might be a little better, if Especially if it's only a "little" better. > > The emphasis is on "might". The entire cost of laying all bets on > something a "computer scientist" claims is the right approache is > something many aren't willing to gamble. Of course. You try things out on small projects first. And if a "computer scientist" recommends something I'd first enquire whether he's one of those "computer scientists" who got his degree only becasue he heard it would lead to big bucks but somehow avoided all real programming experience during his degree program. > > in the long run it means you can get new employees or new contributors > > to hit the ground running when they have to touch your software. > > > Economically, it's a huge win. For small projects, just about anything > > will probably do, but as soon as it gets bigger, it becomes > > increasingly likely that you can't maintain it alone. > > I've worked in Modula-3 but I can't take it seriously, nor would I > probably actually participate in a project which picked such a > language. Same underlying reasons that one contributes to open > source... your effort is not going to be wasted, and hopefully can be > leveraged by somebody else in the future. Which is why when I choose Modula 3 for a project, I hesitate. This argument has nothing to do with the technical merits of the language, but everything to do with its popularity. The first-mover advantage. > I'd go out on a limb and claim that if you write something in C, this > is probably the case, if you write something in > "better"-design-language-v3, I'd hazard a guess not. This is exactly why C is going to stay around -- people use it because it is popular, and it's popular because peope use it. I couldn't have expressed it better myself. -- hendrik _______________________________________________ mlug mailing list [email protected] https://listes.koumbit.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mlug-listserv.mlug.ca
