Oh, and as for examples, random-paging just got me this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jules_Malou
Manual description: Belgian politician Automatic description: Belgian politician and lawyer, Prime Minister of Belgium, and member of the Chamber of Representatives of Belgium (1810–1886) ♂ I know which one I'd prefer... On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 10:50 AM Magnus Manske <[email protected]> wrote: > Thank you Dmitry! Well phrased and to the point! > > As for "templating", that might be the worst of both worlds; without the > flexibility and over-time improvement of automatic descriptions, but making > it harder for people to enter (compared to "free-style" text). We have a > Visual Editor on Wikipedia for a reason :-) > > > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 4:07 AM Dmitry Brant <[email protected]> wrote: > >> My thoughts, as ever(!), are as follows: >> >> - The tool that generates the descriptions deserves a lot more >> development. Magnus' tool is very much a prototype, and represents a tiny >> glimpse of what's possible. Looking at its current output is a straw man. >> - Auto-generated descriptions work for current articles, and *all future >> articles*. They automatically adapt to updated data. They automatically >> become more accurate as new data is added. >> - When you edit the descriptions yourself, you're not really making a >> meaningful contribution to the *data* that underpins the given Wikidata >> entry; i.e. you're not contributing any new information. You're simply >> paraphrasing the first sentence or two of the Wikipedia article. That can't >> possibly be a productive use of contributors' time. >> >> As for Brian's suggestion: >> It would be a step forward; we can even invent a whole template-type >> syntax for transcluding bits of actual data into the description. But IMO, >> that kind of effort would still be better spent on fully-automatic >> descriptions, because that's the ideal that semi-automatic descriptions can >> only approach. >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 10:36 PM, Brian Gerstle <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> Could there be a way to have our nicely curated description cake and >>> eat it too? For example, interpolating data into the description and/or >>> marking data points which are referenced in the description (so as to mark >>> it as outdated when they change)? >>> >>> I appreciate the potential benefits of generated descriptions (and other >>> things), but Monte's examples might have swayed me towards human >>> curated—when available. >>> >>> On Tuesday, August 18, 2015, Monte Hurd <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Ok, so I just did what I proposed. I went to random enwiki articles and >>>> described the first ten I found which didn't already have descriptions: >>>> >>>> >>>> - "Courage Under Fire", *1996 film about a Gulf War friendly-fire >>>> incident* >>>> >>>> - "Pebasiconcha immanis", *largest known species of land snail, >>>> extinct* >>>> >>>> - "List of Kenyan writers", *notable Kenyan authors* >>>> >>>> - "Solar eclipse of December 14, 1917", *annular eclipse which lasted >>>> 77 seconds* >>>> >>>> - "Natchaug Forest Lumber Shed", *historic Civilian Conservation Corps >>>> post-and-beam building* >>>> >>>> - "Sun of Jamaica (album)", *debut 1980 studio album by Goombay Dance >>>> Band* >>>> >>>> - "E-1027", *modernist villa in France by architect Eileen Gray* >>>> >>>> - "Daingerfield State Park", *park in Morris County, Texas, USA, >>>> bordering Lake Daingerfield* >>>> >>>> - "Todo Lo Que Soy-En Vivo", *2014 Live album by Mexican pop singer >>>> Fey* >>>> >>>> - "2009 UEFA Regions' Cup", *6th UEFA Regions' Cup, won by Castile and >>>> Leon* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> And here are the respective descriptions from Magnus' (quite excellent) >>>> autodesc.js: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> - "Courage Under Fire", *1996 film by Edward Zwick, produced by John >>>> Davis and David T. Friendly from United States of America* >>>> >>>> - "Pebasiconcha immanis", *species of Mollusca* >>>> >>>> - "List of Kenyan writers", *Wikimedia list article* >>>> >>>> - "Solar eclipse of December 14, 1917", *solar eclipse* >>>> >>>> - "Natchaug Forest Lumber Shed", *Construction in Connecticut, United >>>> States of America* >>>> >>>> - "Sun of Jamaica (album)", *album* >>>> >>>> - "E-1027", *villa in Roquebrune-Cap-Martin, France* >>>> >>>> - "Daingerfield State Park", *state park and state park of a state of >>>> the United States in Texas, United States of America* >>>> >>>> - "Todo Lo Que Soy-En Vivo", *live album by Fey* >>>> >>>> - "2009 UEFA Regions' Cup", *none* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thoughts? >>>> >>>> Just trying to make my own bold assertions falsifiable :) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 6:32 PM, Monte Hurd <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> The whole human-vs-extracted descriptions quality question could be >>>>> fairly easy to test I think: >>>>> >>>>> - Pick, some number of articles at random. >>>>> - Run them through a description extraction script. >>>>> - Have a human describe the same articles with, say, the app interface >>>>> I demo'ed. >>>>> >>>>> If nothing else this exercise could perhaps make what's thus far been >>>>> a wildly abstract discussion more concrete. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 6:17 PM, Monte Hurd <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> If having the most elegant description extraction mechanism was the >>>>>> goal I would totally agree ;) >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Dmitry Brant <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> IMO, allowing the user to edit the description is a missed >>>>>>> opportunity to make the user edit the actual *data*, such that the >>>>>>> description is generated correctly. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Monte Hurd <[email protected]> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> IMO, if the goal is quality, then human curated descriptions are >>>>>>>> superior until such time as the auto-generation script passes the >>>>>>>> Turing >>>>>>>> test ;) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I see these empty descriptions as an amazing opportunity to give >>>>>>>> *everyone* an easy new way to edit. I whipped an app editing interface >>>>>>>> up >>>>>>>> at the Lyon hackathon: >>>>>>>> bluetooth720 <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VblyGhf_c8> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I used it to add a couple hundred descriptions in a single day just >>>>>>>> by hitting "random" then adding descriptions for articles which didn't >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'd love to try a limited test of this in production to get a sense >>>>>>>> for how effective human curation can be if the interface is easy to >>>>>>>> use... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 1:25 PM, Jan Ainali < >>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Nice one! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Does not appear to work on svwiki though. Does it have something >>>>>>>>> to do with that the wiki in question does not display that tagline? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *Med vänliga hälsningar,Jan Ainali* >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Verksamhetschef, Wikimedia Sverige <http://wikimedia.se> >>>>>>>>> 0729 - 67 29 48 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *Tänk dig en värld där varje människa har fri tillgång till >>>>>>>>> mänsklighetens samlade kunskap. Det är det vi gör.* >>>>>>>>> Bli medlem. <http://blimedlem.wikimedia.se> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 2015-08-18 17:23 GMT+02:00 Magnus Manske < >>>>>>>>> [email protected]>: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Show automatic description underneath "From Wikipedia...": >>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Magnus_Manske/autodesc.js >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To use, add: >>>>>>>>>> importScript ( 'User:Magnus_Manske/autodesc.js' ) ; >>>>>>>>>> to your common.js >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 9:47 AM Jane Darnell <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> It would be even better if this (short: 3 field max) >>>>>>>>>>> pipe-separated list was available as a gadget to wikidatans on >>>>>>>>>>> Wikipedia >>>>>>>>>>> (like me). I can't see if a page I am on has an "instance of" >>>>>>>>>>> (though it >>>>>>>>>>> should) and I can see the description thanks to another gadget >>>>>>>>>>> (sorry no >>>>>>>>>>> idea which one that is). Often I will update empty descriptions, >>>>>>>>>>> but if I >>>>>>>>>>> was served basic fields (so for a painting, the creator field), I >>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>> click through to update that too. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 9:58 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) < >>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Jane Darnell, 15/08/2015 08:53: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes but even if the descriptions were just the contents of >>>>>>>>>>>>> fields >>>>>>>>>>>>> separated by a pipe it would be better than nothing. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> +1, item descriptions are mostly useless in my experience. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> As for "get into production on Wikipedia" I don't know what it >>>>>>>>>>>> means, I certainly don't like 1) mobile-specific features, 2) >>>>>>>>>>>> overriding >>>>>>>>>>>> existing manually curated content; but it's good to 3) fill gaps. >>>>>>>>>>>> Mobile >>>>>>>>>>>> folks often do (1) and (2), if they *instead* did (3) I'd be very >>>>>>>>>>>> happy. :) >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Nemo >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> Mobile-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Mobile-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Mobile-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Mobile-l mailing list >>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Dmitry Brant >>>>>>> Mobile Apps Team (Android) >>>>>>> Wikimedia Foundation >>>>>>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_mobile_engineering >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> EN Wikipedia user page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Brian.gerstle >>> IRC: bgerstle >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Dmitry Brant >> Mobile Apps Team (Android) >> Wikimedia Foundation >> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_mobile_engineering >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 10:36 PM, Brian Gerstle <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> Could there be a way to have our nicely curated description cake and >>> eat it too? For example, interpolating data into the description and/or >>> marking data points which are referenced in the description (so as to mark >>> it as outdated when they change)? >>> >>> I appreciate the potential benefits of generated descriptions (and other >>> things), but Monte's examples might have swayed me towards human >>> curated—when available. >>> >>> On Tuesday, August 18, 2015, Monte Hurd <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Ok, so I just did what I proposed. I went to random enwiki articles and >>>> described the first ten I found which didn't already have descriptions: >>>> >>>> >>>> - "Courage Under Fire", *1996 film about a Gulf War friendly-fire >>>> incident* >>>> >>>> - "Pebasiconcha immanis", *largest known species of land snail, >>>> extinct* >>>> >>>> - "List of Kenyan writers", *notable Kenyan authors* >>>> >>>> - "Solar eclipse of December 14, 1917", *annular eclipse which lasted >>>> 77 seconds* >>>> >>>> - "Natchaug Forest Lumber Shed", *historic Civilian Conservation Corps >>>> post-and-beam building* >>>> >>>> - "Sun of Jamaica (album)", *debut 1980 studio album by Goombay Dance >>>> Band* >>>> >>>> - "E-1027", *modernist villa in France by architect Eileen Gray* >>>> >>>> - "Daingerfield State Park", *park in Morris County, Texas, USA, >>>> bordering Lake Daingerfield* >>>> >>>> - "Todo Lo Que Soy-En Vivo", *2014 Live album by Mexican pop singer >>>> Fey* >>>> >>>> - "2009 UEFA Regions' Cup", *6th UEFA Regions' Cup, won by Castile and >>>> Leon* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> And here are the respective descriptions from Magnus' (quite excellent) >>>> autodesc.js: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> - "Courage Under Fire", *1996 film by Edward Zwick, produced by John >>>> Davis and David T. Friendly from United States of America* >>>> >>>> - "Pebasiconcha immanis", *species of Mollusca* >>>> >>>> - "List of Kenyan writers", *Wikimedia list article* >>>> >>>> - "Solar eclipse of December 14, 1917", *solar eclipse* >>>> >>>> - "Natchaug Forest Lumber Shed", *Construction in Connecticut, United >>>> States of America* >>>> >>>> - "Sun of Jamaica (album)", *album* >>>> >>>> - "E-1027", *villa in Roquebrune-Cap-Martin, France* >>>> >>>> - "Daingerfield State Park", *state park and state park of a state of >>>> the United States in Texas, United States of America* >>>> >>>> - "Todo Lo Que Soy-En Vivo", *live album by Fey* >>>> >>>> - "2009 UEFA Regions' Cup", *none* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thoughts? >>>> >>>> Just trying to make my own bold assertions falsifiable :) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 6:32 PM, Monte Hurd <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> The whole human-vs-extracted descriptions quality question could be >>>>> fairly easy to test I think: >>>>> >>>>> - Pick, some number of articles at random. >>>>> - Run them through a description extraction script. >>>>> - Have a human describe the same articles with, say, the app interface >>>>> I demo'ed. >>>>> >>>>> If nothing else this exercise could perhaps make what's thus far been >>>>> a wildly abstract discussion more concrete. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 6:17 PM, Monte Hurd <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> If having the most elegant description extraction mechanism was the >>>>>> goal I would totally agree ;) >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Dmitry Brant <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> IMO, allowing the user to edit the description is a missed >>>>>>> opportunity to make the user edit the actual *data*, such that the >>>>>>> description is generated correctly. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Monte Hurd <[email protected]> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> IMO, if the goal is quality, then human curated descriptions are >>>>>>>> superior until such time as the auto-generation script passes the >>>>>>>> Turing >>>>>>>> test ;) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I see these empty descriptions as an amazing opportunity to give >>>>>>>> *everyone* an easy new way to edit. I whipped an app editing interface >>>>>>>> up >>>>>>>> at the Lyon hackathon: >>>>>>>> bluetooth720 <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VblyGhf_c8> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I used it to add a couple hundred descriptions in a single day just >>>>>>>> by hitting "random" then adding descriptions for articles which didn't >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'd love to try a limited test of this in production to get a sense >>>>>>>> for how effective human curation can be if the interface is easy to >>>>>>>> use... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 1:25 PM, Jan Ainali < >>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Nice one! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Does not appear to work on svwiki though. Does it have something >>>>>>>>> to do with that the wiki in question does not display that tagline? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *Med vänliga hälsningar,Jan Ainali* >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Verksamhetschef, Wikimedia Sverige <http://wikimedia.se> >>>>>>>>> 0729 - 67 29 48 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *Tänk dig en värld där varje människa har fri tillgång till >>>>>>>>> mänsklighetens samlade kunskap. Det är det vi gör.* >>>>>>>>> Bli medlem. <http://blimedlem.wikimedia.se> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 2015-08-18 17:23 GMT+02:00 Magnus Manske < >>>>>>>>> [email protected]>: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Show automatic description underneath "From Wikipedia...": >>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Magnus_Manske/autodesc.js >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To use, add: >>>>>>>>>> importScript ( 'User:Magnus_Manske/autodesc.js' ) ; >>>>>>>>>> to your common.js >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 9:47 AM Jane Darnell <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> It would be even better if this (short: 3 field max) >>>>>>>>>>> pipe-separated list was available as a gadget to wikidatans on >>>>>>>>>>> Wikipedia >>>>>>>>>>> (like me). I can't see if a page I am on has an "instance of" >>>>>>>>>>> (though it >>>>>>>>>>> should) and I can see the description thanks to another gadget >>>>>>>>>>> (sorry no >>>>>>>>>>> idea which one that is). Often I will update empty descriptions, >>>>>>>>>>> but if I >>>>>>>>>>> was served basic fields (so for a painting, the creator field), I >>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>> click through to update that too. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 9:58 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) < >>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Jane Darnell, 15/08/2015 08:53: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes but even if the descriptions were just the contents of >>>>>>>>>>>>> fields >>>>>>>>>>>>> separated by a pipe it would be better than nothing. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> +1, item descriptions are mostly useless in my experience. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> As for "get into production on Wikipedia" I don't know what it >>>>>>>>>>>> means, I certainly don't like 1) mobile-specific features, 2) >>>>>>>>>>>> overriding >>>>>>>>>>>> existing manually curated content; but it's good to 3) fill gaps. >>>>>>>>>>>> Mobile >>>>>>>>>>>> folks often do (1) and (2), if they *instead* did (3) I'd be very >>>>>>>>>>>> happy. :) >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Nemo >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> Mobile-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Mobile-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Mobile-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Mobile-l mailing list >>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Dmitry Brant >>>>>>> Mobile Apps Team (Android) >>>>>>> Wikimedia Foundation >>>>>>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_mobile_engineering >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> EN Wikipedia user page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Brian.gerstle >>> IRC: bgerstle >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Dmitry Brant >> Mobile Apps Team (Android) >> Wikimedia Foundation >> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_mobile_engineering >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Mobile-l mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l >> >
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