No, we are not crazy, Bob. I believe I have thought about this as much
as you have. The fact is that while DeBeers could be prevented by law -
law which can be practically enforced - from selling diamonds, and while
Sothebys and Christies were slapped by the authorities for price-
fixing (again
the case was provable and prosecutable), who is going spend the time and
resources to go after the relatively few people who do this?
No one said that the practice is FAIR.
We know that it isn't fair, but we also know there is little, if
anything,
that either the auction houses thru civil actions (although it has
been done in
the past) or the government can do to stop it. So it isn't merely a
matter of what
is fair.
Your best defense in this case is to know your own mind and offer (bid)
what you are willing to pay --- to have a plan and to stick to it.
That is also the only practical approach to this
unfortunate problem.
If you can think of a better one, I'd like to know about it, because
I'm sure I've been a three or four increment underbidder on various
items. At first, I used to fulminate and resent this, but now I make
up my mind what I will pay and that's that.
One caveat: the emotional response of a dealer and a collector can be
quite different to this situation. I realize that, and I understand
why people
would resent shilling.
Kirby
On Nov 13, 2005, at 6:03 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I think you guys must be crazy if you think shilling is partially
the buyers
fault! By your logic, price-fixing and collusion are perfectly OK
too.
Demand is like half of a bell curve. Sure, there will always be a few
people at the end who are willing to pay a lot more for an item,
but it
still isn't fair for the supplier to shift the curve in that
direction.
This is why DeBeers wasn't allowed to sell diamonds in the US for the
longest time... Was it the consignors' fault when the major
auction houses
were caught colluding and price-fixing? No. It was their fault,
and it was
illegal.
Cheers,
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 9:40 PM
Subject: Re: [MOPO] Bruces' sale and Heritage.
Sorry to see that Dario feels bad about being possibly "run up" or
"shilled" at auctions. Frankly, i've been bidding in auctions for
so many
years that I have a different perspective on it.
The only way anyone can be shilled or run up is IF they allow it
to happen
to themselves. Let's face it, if you want to bid on something,
you have a
price you're willing to pay. If you get it for that price- Great!
If you
get it for less- even better! But if you end up paying MORE for
it than
you were originally intending to go, well that's you're own
fault. No one
holds a gun to your head and says, "Pay more or I'll pull the
trigger."
If you bid more, then you're willing to pay more. No "Shill" at
any time
knows what amount you're willing to go to, so if you get "run up"
then you
only allowed yourself to get run up. Getting something for less
than what
you wanted to pay or were willing to pay is not an entitlement or
right.
The only true way you can be shilled- is if you tell someone what
you're
willing to go to on an item and then that person or their agent
decides to
take advantage of it. If you told them that price, then you only have
yourself to blame. End of s!
tory.
On another subject - but related to bidding in sales, I know Bruce
likes
to hype the fact that his sales (by their virtue of being on ebay)
don't
charge buyer's premiums. This is a MINOR difference between his
method of
conducting auctions and Heritage's (where they charge a BP of
15%). I
think this has more to do with the fact that his sales are on ebay
where
the hammer IS the price and BP's are NOT allowed. When Bruce
conducted
his sales through Christie's and Howard Lowery's auctions, there were
buyer's premiums on those auctions as well.
If you guys can go out to dinner- where waiters are involved in
serving
the meals- I think you can calculate the tip (15%). Waiters
provide a
service- just like the auction houses do. So, for example, if you
bid on
something at Bruce's auction and are willing to pay $100, then bid
on the
same thing at Heritage and bid $85.00. It's the same thing! And
it's not
difficult to figure out. You're still paying the (approximately)
$100. So
don't fall for that - "Gee, paying a buyer's premium is a bad thing"
routine.
And speaking of Heritage... the first day has come to a close and
there
were quite a number of interesting results. Many of the premier items
brought premiere prices. For example; the Out of the Past one sheet
brought $11,500.00. Suspicion one sheet $6,325.00, Crime School
three
sheet $5,750.00, Destry Rides Again three sheet $10,925.00,
Rainbow's End
one sheet $3,450.00, (yes, westerns are doing well again), Rebel
Without a
Cause 40x60 $5,750.00, High Sierra three sheet $16,100.00 etc.
These were
some outstanding results. That being said, there were also some real
bargains to be had. There was an Across the Pacific half sheet
for $184.,
Wagons Roll at Night one sheet for $230., an Adventures of Robin Hood
portrait lobby card for $299., and many more deals in Bogart,
Hitchcock,
etc. - Proving that there were some real bargains in the sale.
If you're
not registered to bid in this sale, then you're selling yourself
short!
There's still time- call Heritage in the morning !
and get on their phone bid lines. There's still one more day to
the sale
and some great material is getting ready to be sold. Okay, I'm
going to
commit a heresy here and suggest we all stop watching college
football on
Saturday and check out the sale. (Go Longhorns!)
I see Bruce launched his preview for his upcoming sale in
December. Lot's
of great material for sale once again! Admittedly it is a lot of
the same
material we've seen over the years with a few new items we've
never seen
before- but let's face it, those same old favorite classics we've
come to
know and love are what we all want to collect anyway. So, I expect
his
December sale will do as well as his Halloween sale did!
Thanks to Grey at Heritage and Bruce for continuing to supple all
of us
collectors (and dealers) with great material and keeping the hobby
alive
and well. And indeed, it is doing well.
Ron Moore
Cinema Icons
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