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Michael,
First, we're getting way off-topic for this list, but I do want to answer
your questions, so:
I am not saying that realistic ultra-violent psycho-sexual torture and
murder-fest movies and video games are the sole culprit. Obviously there
are plenty of other causes. We are pumping young children full of mind-altering
drugs at schools these days. I doubt this is a good thing. Good parenting has
declined as most families are now forced to have both parents working full-time
jobs. Gangster rap is filled with horrid stuff. And the level of realistic and
unnecessarily detailed and gory violence has increased all through our
media in recent decades -- not just movies and video games. So, there's
plenty of blame to go around. But the media stuff is where we can make change
most quickly, which is what we're talking about here.
As to what we can do about it, I stated in my first post on HOSTEL that I
am opposed to official government censorship. I think the appropriate thing for
society to do is police itself. People can deny the producers of such atrocities
their profit by not buying tickets and urging others not to. They can
protest such films to the theaters that show them, or the store that sell the
games. They can demand that particularly offensive titles be removed from the
shelves. They can insist on proper ratings -- note that the MPAA only rated
HOSTEL as R, which means that children of *any* age can see it with a parent or
guardian, rather than NC-17 as they should have (which means theaters are
supposed to keep those under 17 out of the theater even if they are with their
parents). Society as a whole can stop saying "it's all good" to such films and
games and start saying "No, it's wrong. We don't want it." I prefer this kind of
activity to outright banning by government censors.
But if that doesn't do it, then even though I hate the idea, maybe it's
time to bring back government censorship of certain types of films and games
that exceed very specific, non-political guidelines. That's very dangerous and I
don't want to see it happen, but we have made similar compromises to our ideals
of an open society in order to combat the dangers of terrorism, and I
consider some of these products to be media terrorism. But that would only be a
last resort -- it would be far better if the industry would reign itself in
and not force it to come to that.
As for where I get my information of the increasing incidents and rise
in the brutality, viciousness and the casual, motive-less violence by young
people... For starters, the ACLU says that the government did not even start
keeping statistics on murders committed by juveniles until 1972. Why? Because
before that it happened so rarely that it didn't occur to anyone to keep
statistics on it, that's why.
I've already cited Columbine (and there have been several similar incidents
since Columbine, and not just in this country). How about you cite me an example
of a Columbine-like incident that happened 30 or 40 years ago, or earlier to
prove that this isn't a recent development?
I've already cited the three middle class teenagers who decided to go
around beating homeless people to death for no particular reason in Fort
Lauderdale. You say that people have died more horribly than that all though
history. So what? That doesn't change that this incident was done by children,
not adults. How about you cite me an incident similar to this, perpetrated by
middle class American teenagers 30 or 40 years ago?
How about the incident in London a few years ago, when two young boys (I
think I recall them as being 8 and 9 years old) beat to death their 5-year old
playmate over a period of several hours... not in an instant of anger or in
revenge for something... but just as a game they were playing? Again, middle
class children, not savages in a jungle or third-world children grown
prematurely old by the depredations of genocidal local warfare. How about you
cite me some examples of things similar to the London incident that happened 30
or 40 years ago?
Enough. The trend is clear to anyone who cares to look. But as I said, we
have drifted way off-topic, so I've said my last on this for now.
-- JR
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael
Greenwood
Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 21:56
Subject: Re: [MOPO] HOSTILE TOWARD HOSTEL Where do you get this information? As a fan and great reader of true crime as well as all forms of non-fiction in particular, I've always been led to believe that there is a distinct percentage of the population that seems to exhibit behaviour that can lead to violent crime. I've been under the impression that that number has remained fairly constant through time as far up as books like Colin Wilson's superb 'Encyclopedia Of Crime' (or is it Murder?) which I think was published in the 60s. Are you saying that in the last thirty or forty years that this has all of a sudden changed? What source is that from? There are many varied theories and reasons for numbers and changes in certain findings (cities versus rural, for one) but there have always been the same fraction of these types of people and the means by which they commit these acts will naturally change as different weapons and ideas enter into popular thought and imagination. I'm not sitting here and saying, "Oh well, such is life," or any such thing. I'm fascinated by the motivation behind these acts and all the ideas being presented here. As far as viciousness and senselessness, I think you're out of your mind. The level of malevolence that has been recorded through violent criminal history is mind-boggling. To some that have perished, a baseball bat beating would be a kind thought, I'm sure. You need to read some stuff! What do you propose we do about it? You can take away all violent books and films and ideas and you'll still have incredible feats of criminal brutality amongst society. If you have a cure that isn't about censorship or something, I'd love to hear it. If it is about censorship and stopping all forms of progress that can be applied to nefarious acts, can you map it out for us? What exactly can we do about it? All the best, JR wrote: Sadly, this prevailing attitude of let's just shrug the shoulders and say it's a problem we've always had and that "it's really nobody's fault" is *exactly* the reason the situation continues to get worse with each generation -- just as the gore fest films and video games continue to get worse and worse. Yes, there have be young killers from time immemorial, but the numbers of such crimes are increasing all out of proportion to the population growth in recent decades -- and the extremes, brutality, viciousness and senseless nature of them has been increasing at the same time. Let's not try to pretend that Columbines happened 40 and 50 years ago... or many of the kinds of things we're seeing (and certainly not in the numbers we are seeing them happen). Let's at least be honest with ourselves about that, shall we? Even if we're not willing to do anything about it. But who am I kidding? I've mentioned before, most people don't want to face up to the fact that as a culture we are responsible, that we are exacerbating this problem (along with many others) by our continued "it's all good" attitudes and the shrugging of our shoulders. Different strokes for different folks should not include beating homeless people to death with baseball bats -- or realistically torturing and slicing up people who stop at a hostel just for a couple of hours of so-called "entertainment" -- particularly when children as young a 6 and 7 are being taken to see such an atrocities on the big screen. Like it or not... as a culture we are what we eat. Cannibalism fans take note. -- JR
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- Re: [MOPO] HOSTILE TOWARD HOSTEL JR
- Re: [MOPO] HOSTILE TOWARD HOSTEL Kirby McDaniel
- Re: [MOPO] HOSTILE TOWARD HOSTEL Natalie Elliott
- Re: [MOPO] HOSTILE TOWARD HOSTEL Natalie Elliott
