Re: [MOPO] EBAY AND EXCESSIVE SHIPPING CHARGES

[Craig Goebel]

JR makes many good comments.   I think there are two lessons to be learned AND put into practice from them.   One is the actual use of fact based negative feedback, impediments to which are ebay's limit of 80 characters for an entry and the obsessive desire to maintain as high a rating as possible, so people who offend should be held to account. I have 2 negatives - one a mistaken identity and another a retaliation for a fact based negative. If I felt more comfortable that sellers take the time to look at what a negative is about and not be dismissive (wary is ok), then I might be more inclined to go public with my dissatisfaction. Of course sellers' monitoring vast numbers of items for buyers' feedback is not possible. Buyers and sellers must make better use of the program by being less afraid of the consequences.   The second is that different business models are possible for ebay and online sales, but if sellers are going to move from consolidating standard costs of selling as overhead, which are included in the price of the item at its minimum / start, then they should describe what and how much those extras are in shipping and handling, etc. For instance, transportation costs to get to the PO or courier can easily be determined as can wages, so these would go into the price, but with the cost of oil rising, the extra gas cost can justifiably be taken out of fixed costs and put into a special handling charge, so buyers and ebay can see it and it can be visibly removed if the costs go down. Recently a seller admitted that he routinely added extra unidentified costs into shipping to recoup paypal charges, even though this is interdicted. He agreed to give me an equivalent discount - free shipping - on my next purchase. Needless to state all he will get IS one more buy from me.   I try to patronize sellers who make an effort to set accurate charges and whose fare is well described.   I suppose I just have to take - finally - the next step of being brave about negative feedback.   Craig, Vancouver ----- Original Message ----- From: JR To: Craig Goebel ; MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 10:52 PM Subject: Re: [MOPO] EBAY AND EXCESSIVE SHIPPING CHARGES I agree with what Craig and others have been saying about pumped-up "shipping and handling" charges that some sellers implement. But I'd like to point out a couple of  things:   1) This is a common practice for non-eBay mail-order companies and has been for decades. How many times have you seen the TV ad where they're going to send you a "$75 dollar value for ONLY $9.95" and you look at the screen and it says "$9.95 plus shipping & handling" and when you place the order you discover that shipping and handing is $19.95 or more? Using the shipping and handling charge as a way to offer absurdly low retail prices and still end up getting paid closer to a genuine retail price is a common practice,even with the big brand-name catalogs -- let's not pretend it's just an eBay issue. It's just that more and more of those sellers who have been doing regular mail-order and charging excessive shipping charges have now moved to doing business on eBay and have brought their decades-old techniques with them.   2) In a way, eBay encourages this kind of thing by prohibiting sellers from charging users who pay with PayPal or Credit Cards a processing fee. The seller is  charged the processing fee -- it is a cost of doing business -- but they are not allowed to pass it on to the customers, at least not up front and honestly. They can't add it to the starting bid, because on all this low-cost stuff that makes their starting bids non-competitive with the 99-cent starting bids of their rivals on eBay. So, the only place left for them to recoup genuine cost-of-business expenses is by pumping up the "shipping and handling" charge. Note the "handling" term attached to "shipping and handling" -- that very clearly means they are not claiming that all of the charge will be spent on the actual shipping cost, but some of it is also for covering "handling" -- a code word for "our cost of doing business and making the profit we feel we need to make to stay in business."   So, pumped-up shipping and handling charges are nothing new and there's really nothing that eBay is going to be able to do about it, despite their public posturing. The only thing a buyer can do is be a smart shopper and check out various sellers and compare what their "shipping and handling" charges are -- then do business with the ones who seems to be the most reasonable in this area. I remember several years ago when Bruce was publicly criticized because he was charging a flat $8.00 shipping and handling fee on all of his eBay sales -- regardless of how many posters you won, he would combine them into one package and charge you a flat $8 bucks. At the time some people thought that was kinda high... particularly if you only won a single poster for $9.95 (in those days many poster sellers were only charging $3.00 to $5.00 to ship). Now almost everyone charges $8 bucks or more and Bruce has now gone to actual-cost shipping plus a flat $2.00 for packaging materials  (which makes the most sense, but is a hassle for his staff and the exact amount the shipping  will be is something the bidder can't know until he's actually won and gets the invoice -- but it's the only fair way to do it. Those who still charge a flat fee must either make it high enough to guarantee that they won't lose money on the packaging and shipping or else take a chance that they will. Given the low prices so many eBay items go for, most are not willing to take even a small loss on shipping and handling and I don't blame them).   It's true many more sellers abuse the process... that some insist on insurance and then don't buy it... or charge you Priority Mail rates and then ship "Media Mail" or simple First Class in crummy packaging. Those people you learn to avoid buying from -- and when one of them screws you like this take a stand and leave negative feedback and explain what they did, so that others are warned (or maybe the seller is forced to change his ways). But don't expect any third party like eBay to be able to reign in these abuses, because they are well-established business-as-usual practices. The best you can do is comparison shop and leave that all-important negative feedback when you do get burned.   -- JR     ----- Original Message ----- From: Craig Goebel To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 1:03 Subject: Re: [MOPO] EBAY AND EXCESSIVE SHIPPING CHARGES As (mostly) a buyer on ebay and other sites, I have, on many occasions and more than once on this posting site, decried exactly the same problems noted by ebay.   Sellers state that shipping and handling costs are the responsibility of the buyer. I regularly receive parcels on which the postal cost is much less than I have been charged and the materials are recycled, plus in the last year or so, many more sellers demand that insurance payment be made but there is no way to verify that it actually was bought by the seller. I'd bet many big volume sellers, such as for autographs and dvds, etc., don't buy insurance and "self-insure" by pocketing the proceeds of $1.30 per $100 over and over to do so.   Many sellers, mostly those who sell dvds and the like, refuse to initiate socalled discounts for multiple buys to bolster revenue even though ALL shipping is based on weight and volume classifications, so several items can often be shipped in one class - meaning there really is no discount but properly a number of items can be sent for set prices.   The position I maintain is that these funds are NOT profit centres for sellers, nor an extra way to defray paypal or any other payment processing charges; these funds are sent to the seller so the seller can send the item to me; in effect these funds are held in trust for the buyer for the purpose of shipping only and they should be accurately estimated. Now with oil prices being so high, fuel surcharges are made - in Canada they are about 10% of the postage and couriers charge this too. Since oil is unlikely to get cheaper, actual costs will only go up. So a buyer doesn't want to pay more than necessary.   More than an effort to subvert the market place by avoiding fees and only apparently lowering the "price" of the item, the sellers who extract extra money are breaking trust with the buyer and should be made pariahs. Good for ebay, it's about time - whatever the motivation, the result might be of benefit to buyers.   Craig, Vancouver   Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Free Edition. 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