David, Sean, and Ari
Thank God for voices of sanity! It is an odd coincidence that just today I
sent an e-mail to all my consignors (for reasons explained within, that
greatly relate to this discussion.
I sent the following:
"This is Bruce Hershenson. I am sending this e-mail to all of my consignors
because a matter of great urgency just came to my attention. What is this
important matter? It concerns the "minty white" lobby card sets I have
reported on in my e-mail club twice over the past couple of years. I first
became aware that the people responsible for the "minty white" insert
reproductions had almost certainly branched out into lobby card reproduction
sets, because I was consigned a number of sets that had the same telltale
signs of the reproduction inserts (printed on a different paper stock that
is glossy on front and back, a "minty white" appearance, and no sign of
age).
A few months later, I was consigned a bunch of new lobby card sets,
which again included a lot of minty white sets, many titles of which were
new to me, indicating that the people making these reproductions had likely
made additional sets of different titles. I wrote a complete summary of what
occurred with a list of all titles in my e-mail club message #408. If you
have not read what I wrote there (or want to refresh your memory), go to
http://www.emovieposter.com/club/returnmessage.php?id=474 (you will need to
be a member of the e-mail club to view the message; if you are not a member
go to http://www.emovieposter.com/mail/clubsignup.php to signup). While the
e-mail club messages may not be of that much interest to you, you might want
to scan each message each week (more so if you still do any buying or
trading of movie posters, as you may find some information like the above
that can be very useful).
The reason I am sending this e-mail today is that I just received two
large consignments from European collectors/dealers, and in BOTH
consignments, were several of these minty white lobby card sets. Of course,
I will not auction these and I have alerted these two individuals by direct
e-mail, but the very fact that multiples of these fake sets are in European
hands is very distressing to me!
How did they get to Europe? One way is that the people responsible for
these fakes regularly auctioned them on eBay, and they often sell for low
prices that are "too good to be true", and sometimes the people who buy them
are aware they may be fake, but think it is too much hassle to return them,
especially since they did not spend that much money. Another way that these
sets spread all over the world is that the people who printed them have a
long history of "trading" them to dealers. They offer to trade their great
titles (which they claim to have gotten in a "warehouse find") for dealers'
slowest selling inventory, and apparently many dealers have made large
trades in this fashion. Of course, they likely then go ahead and re-sell the
fakes, and the people who buy from them are less cautious than they would be
if they were dealing directly with the people who initially printed the
fakes.
Within a couple of weeks, I will be returning all "suspicious" items I
have been consigned. I am not saying that I can say with 100% certainty that
every single item I put aside as "suspicious" is surely a fake, but I have
enough doubt that I am not willing to sell those items, and I will be
returning them to the owners with a note explaining that I feel they are
likely repros. In the meantime, I want to make certain that all of you who
are offered complete lobby card sets from any source examine them very
carefully, and also make certain that the person you get them from offers
you an unconditional return policy.
Note that we at eMoviePoster.com are selling many hundreds of complete
lobby card sets that close this Tuesday. *KNOW THAT WE EXAMINED EVERY SET
VERY CAREFULLY, AND IF WE WERE IN THE SLIGHTEST DOUBT AS TO THE GENUINENESS
OF ANY OF THEM, WE PUT IT ASIDE!* And of course, we offer an unconditional
return policy for anyone who disagrees with us (or has doubts of their own).
I have a few final words about the fake lobby sets. The people who
created them are getting more devious! Many of them are now found in plastic
bags or glassine envelopes, similar to those actually used for lobby card
sets of the 1960s to 1980s (I imagine there will soon be a market for
genuine original plastic bags or glassine envelopes, which can then be
re-used!). Also, a telltale sign of the fakes is that they have nothing
whatsoever on the back, and that they show no signs of age. Some of the
newest sets I have been sent have some pencil notations on the back, and
some slight signs of aging, and I would think that the people who own these
will start artificially aging them and marking them, to make them less
suspicious.
If any of you have any information to add to what I wrote above, please
reply to me by e-mail, so I can share that additional information with my
e-mail club (just under 5,000 members). And please be very careful when you
buy lobby card sets, and if you DO get sold (or traded) any suspicious sets,
please make sure to return them!
Thanks very much.
Bruce Hershenson
President, eMoviePoster.com
P.O. Box 874
West Plains, MO 65775
http://www.emovieposter.com
417-256-9616"
P.S. The above is what I sent. I find it fascinating that most of those here
on MoPo who have praise make reference to "trades" they did. Obviously they
have good feelings because they feel they made "great" trades, trading junk
for good items!
Bruce
On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 9:43 PM, David Kusumoto
<[email protected]>wrote:
> No, Sean, you are not alone. Had I more time to get involved in daily
> discussions, I would post more. But coming across yours, I feel compelled
> to comment on the "moral compass" issue. I equally object to dealing with a
> known seller of fakes, however allegedly "inadvertent," a.k.a. those whose
> testimonials have the effect of casting Mr. Loce's actions like an "honest
> mistake" or "just a part of doing business" in the competitive marketplace.
> I bought several minty whites from those guys many years ago and unloaded
> them all for free to friends who didn't care after I told them they were
> repros. (I didn't discover until LONG after I bought them that they were
> phony and figured my statute of limitations had run out seeking a refund for
> posters acquired for "too good to be true prices.")
>
> To me, it appears at MoPo we've been reading -- during the last two days --
> testimonials from people who -- while not condoning the practice of selling
> fakes -- appear to shrug off the issue on the basis of their own personal,
> one-on-one dealings, e.g., sounding along the lines of, "I'm aware of the
> controversy associated with Mr. Loce, but because I haven't been ripped off
> personally (or by much) -- and because my communications with him have been
> cordial, friendly, etc., he appears to be an otherwise nice guy,
> blah-blah-blah - hence he hasn't been a crook to ME" -- with the word, *"ME"
> *being the emphasis. You get the feeling reading these testimonials that
> he's being re-cast as an "everyone makes mistakes" and "he's not all bad"
> guy because we're once again -- NOT HEARING from many of those
> too-g**-damn-quiet people who are afraid of him or who think it's bad
> manners among the "group-think" to throw a dealer or a customer -- under the
> bus for any reason. I am definitely sounding sanctimonious when I say I
> would not go out of my way to PUBLICLY defend a "friend" considered dodgy in
> many collecting harbors. (I might add, however, that I might approach or
> defend such a "friend" privately, one-on-one; but if a true "friend" accused
> of such behavior lacks contrition, it's safe to say I'd end that
> friendship.)
>
> To me, dealing with people who occasionally do business with shady
> characters, *looking the other way so long as they themselves have not
> been personally ripped off *-- reminds me of the time when Sue Heim's
> posters were stolen years ago by convicted felon Joe Hernandez and she had a
> list of dealers who knowingly bought the material "hot" without knowing that
> she personally was the victim. She had good manners and dealt with it in
> her own way. But she never forgot, esp. when people rushed to his defense
> or attempted to dilute the offenses in weird-ass ways. I would not want to
> be associated with, be friends with or do business with any person
> continuing to engage in transactions with known deceptive practices. So
> what if you got your money back? It's not a wash just because you got some
> "good with bad." You simply cut your losses by being proactive or getting
> lucky. It's astonishing to read such rationalizations as if the guy is
> going through some sort of re-hab hence shouldn't be kicked too harshly.
>
> -kuz.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 21:44:05 -0500
> From: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: tloceposters
> To: [email protected]
>
> I was always taught that when you can identify someone who knowingly
> sells reproductions as originals (for over a decade) at a minimum, and more
> than likely contributed to their manufacture, you should do everything you
> can to NOT deal with that person.
>
>
>
> The attitude here seems to be one of, well as long as he is pleasant about
> trying to rip me off, and as long as I can get a refund if I happen to
> discover his schemes I am ok in dealing with him.
>
>
>
> For some reason I don't have the attitude that it's ok to knowingly deal
> with someone who purposefully tries to pass off fake posters as being
> legitimate and who has driven countless numbers of people out of the hobby
> when they find out how they've been ripped off and no one warned them and/or
> others had the attitude of "oh yeah, most people have been ripped off by him
> before."
>
>
>
> I'm amazed by the lack of a moral center by the members of MoPo.
>
>
>
> But I guess that's just me.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* MoPo List [mailto:[email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Michael
> B
> *Sent:* Monday, February 02, 2009 7:20 PM
> *To:* [email protected]
> *Subject:* [MOPO] tloceposters
>
>
>
>
> he is getting play here. does anyone have his direct email so i can send
> him my want list?
>
> mbb
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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>
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