Yes, this is my main concern also--that max proxy bids entered in the days and weeks prior to the live auction are used by the auction house to their advantage--to drive prices up with shill bidding just below the max proxy bid. We've all experienced the feverish bidding that can occur between 2 or more collectors hell bent on winning an auction, but how can it ever be OK when the other bidder is the auction house? I thought the prices of collectibles were supposed to be set by collector demand--not auction houses with insider knowledge and a rigged bidding system. Now, I understand the argument that you should never place a max proxy bid over what you're willing to pay, but don't bidders hope to get at least some of the items they're interested in for less than their max proxy bid if there doesn't happen to be more competition from other (real) bidders that day? This sort of lucky discount happens every day on Ebay. If the vast majority of posters in an auction consistently sell for the most bidders are willing to pay (including the purchases the auction house makes), this creates a false psychology for bidders that in order to win items you have to set your max proxy bid even higher. It becomes harder to determine whether price appreciation is really the result of collector demand or auction house manipulation. Doesn't every bidder assume their max proxy bids are secret? The statements from Heritage are enough to make me stop placing ANY max proxy bids prior to their live auction. And since their poster auctions often take place during a week day when many of us are busy at our day jobs, this means I won't be able to bid on items that I would have in the past. So yes, the recent revelations about Heritage practices are definitely going to negatively impact my participation in their auctions. -_David
on 9/17/09 3:23 PM, buy movie posters at [email protected] wrote: - what i question are the secret max proxy bids that are placed prior to the live auction going underway. time and time again i see or hear of someone looking to bid on an item lets say of $100 and they do go ahead and bid, and put in their secret max proxy of $2500 and within hours, that is -day light hours- hours of which suspected employees are expected to be working in their office, the price has already skyrocketed to $2400 and stopped. and it's stopped for good until the auction is over. unless if by some chance in heaven you call and figure out a convincing reason for them to retract your bid. if not your stuck with the item for good. -also you¹re kidding yourself if you don't think shill bidding can and or does occur by an auction house themselves in using their own live online bidding software. why are you so naive to think employees of the auction wouldn't restrict themselves to using the same method of bidding as their customers? the employees namely n.p. gresham are just as likely to bid during the live auction bidding through the online live software as they would be to bid before the auction began. Also who¹s to say the auction house can¹t track through the live bidding software who¹s actually looking at what or who¹s logged on? this also puts the buyer at a disadvantage as the auction house can make decisions in advance as to whether an item should actually sell or not; whether or not the auction house themselves should before the item ends come in and make a move. -furthermore what makes this all the more worse is when an auction house¹s own employees are allowed to bid on items. why? because they know in the computer system what people¹s max proxy bids are, what they are willing to pay, and the auction house can determine what the price of the item should sell for -if at all! think about it. if your max bid was $2500 and someone at the auction said that's too cheap, they could see exactly what you bidded on the item and bid in our example $2600 and then secretly give it back to the consigner or take the item in themselves. taking it in themselves would allow them to control the market or stick it back into their next auction. -also with an employee working for the auction house bidding on the item who in the hell says they are entitled to pay for it? the item could be given back or used in a future auction. employees of the auction house aren't governed by the same standards non-affiliate regular bidders are. also another example, auction houses say that they supposedly shill bid to do the consigners a favor so that the items sell for a reasonable amount. who¹s to say that since an auction house supposedly buys items and sticks them into their own auctions that they don¹t purposely shill their own auctions if not more than consignees? after all they are paid either way X percent of what the item sells for, so for them, why not try and make more money on something they already own? it gives them more of an incentive to bid on there own stuff if they are allowed to put their own items into the auction. -furthermore if auction houses are allowed to shill bid, shouldn¹t the consignees be given the same rights? you¹d might as well just go ahead and allow them to bid on their own auctions; but of course the auction house would never do this because then it would be obvious that in fact shill bidding was occurring. it¹s all just so wrong down to the last penny. -wrapping it up; so lesson¹s learned, there are numerous problems with this. IT IS FRAUD. let me repeat it again that shill bidding IS FRAUD. it is conspiracy and or an act of intentional deception made for personal and or cooperate financial gain i.e. the auction house. it should be apparent if it already isn¹t that auction houses aren't entitled to set the final sale price of an item. that is why items are auctioned off to begin with, to determine the price as to what a non affiliated select group of individuals are willing to pay. the key word is ³non-affiliated², that goes for the consignee and auction house, as both of them are affiliates and should in ALL fairness NEVER be allowed to bid. if in fact an auction house can put their own items into their own auctions why in god¹s name should they be bidding on them? since when did the seller become the buyer and the buyer become the seller? i guess that¹s the million dollar question (literally speaking) they will be faced when they step before a judge. -as far as the ethics in shill bidding, there are none. there is nothing morally honest or fair about shill bidding. it is a conniving attempt to profiteer off of what someone is willing to maximally pay for an item. ³maximally² not necessarily what they should or are immediately obligated to pay unless certain set of criteria falls into place. the probability of an item selling way below or above your secret proxy from my experience is around 1:1, it may or may not, however for an item to sell right below your max proxy is like 1:100 odds in the auction world. it¹s like the day the earth stood still and being attacked by aliens here on earth, it just doesn¹t happen. think about it? two strangers willing to bid so close to one another on the same item at the same time for the same amount of money. -the worst part about this is that you have no idea as to who the high bidder is or who your going against unless of course, like the plaintiff in this case you get a writ or court order demanding the auction house to open up and ³share all². this whole idea of shill bidding when you look at it, is so sick and twisted that it¹s really sad someone would even try to justify it as being morally permissible. buymovieposters http://members.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewUserPage&userid=buymovieposters <http://members.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewUserPage&userid=buymoviepo sters> Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___________________________________________________________________ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [email protected] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___________________________________________________________________ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [email protected] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
