Just to play the devil's advocate here, if you look at it from the perspective of an alleged forger looking to defend himself in some upcoming court cases it makes perfect sense and is a win/win situation.
If it's found out, no big deal - Except to bolster your claim that there were others making and selling these fakes and you were an innocent victim also. And it bolsters your claim that even the experts have a hard time telling the real from the fakes, which in turn bolsters your claim that you had no idea you were duped. If it's not found out, you exact some measure of revenge on the very auction house that "outed" you as it were - the auction house that was the first to publicly be "caught" selling the fakes and the one under the biggest microscope. ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Evans To: [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 3:12 PM Subject: Re: [MOPO] MINTY WHITE INSERTS Just an observation on people applying their own logic to fakers as a method of discounting certain items being fakes. I would not have picked a poster of which only two genuine copies are known to exist, as I would have believed would have invited the closest possible scrutiny. I would not have believed a doctored modern commercial reproduction would pass this assumed close scrutiny. (Even if I knew an auction house had already unwittingly passed lower value fakes made by another, more sophisticated method.) If I knew the auction house were now aware they had passed fakes of another method of manufacture, I would have assumed they had tightened their security. I would not think a poor fake, albeit one of a different method of manufacture, would pass under the radar. I would not attempt something I would have thought had little chance of avoiding discovery. I would not have risked facing (without knowing anything to make me believe otherwise) almost inevitable serious consequences. Applying what you believe to be logical to other people. It doesn't necessarily add up. On 13 Oct 2009, at 13:31, Tom Martin wrote: It apears to me that everyone is talking about differant Posters and the ones from 80s could have been from all kinds of sources. That would explain why each person is explaing I differant size, a differant poster, and format.. as to the souce of any.. there could be multiple bogus posters. The point I addressed is that there was a find of inserts in the 80s that were of all titles and from national screen. If that were addressed and made known as fact . That would explain why some appear like new as Originals and done by the after hours as they were the entire insert Inventory Of the cleveland office. If we could hunt down the national screen service peopel perhaps they could attest to the fact they threw out 1000s of posters and also give a idea the quantity. 2.) we have streched from inserst to include one sheet and lobbie cards, the point was never that there are NOT fake inserts or lobbies or on sheets.. the point was that they are NOT all bootleg just because they are a new condition looking poster, and I offered personal testimony from a witness standpoint of being at the time and place and the story I was given at time.. and I asked everyone to consider the circunstances. we were not selling star wars for 100 back the so there was no fever pitch desire. And yes we had reproductions availible also. The Lisenced Lucasfilm one sheet were done By Jeff Kilian of texas who also did the star wars Checlist and even worked with Drew struzan.. he did the style d poster in a poster star wars poster re-issue tha I have rolls of myself as I bought them back then.. He also did the Roger rabbit series as seen on the walls in the Movie and also did the wild and wolfy tex avery Poster- red hot rideing hood. these poster were lisence and also I think are 27 x 41.. dont have one next to me to measure, anyone can take a photo or make a comment about anything.. Perhaps a good idea would be at next columbus Cinevent for someone to bring exampla or everyone send samples to a dealer attending and people could see for themselves the differance. That still doesnt set the record straight as there could and is fact there are all kinds of reproductions in all genres and all types of poster sizes.. Its like saying I saw phoney dolor bill... OK...? so what?? where all the minty whites the same??? it appears not.. where the all fuzzy - it seems not... on same Paper - NO? well then what criteria is the same? It appears nothing other then ther are fakes,,, and there are originals.. when it gets Blurred for me is the fact that only a few titles are aggreed in the hobby to be telltale fakes.. most are open to debate and most are spoke about without facts without even the said posters being offerd as evidence just myths and legends. The other problem is the debate on quantitys... I still have rolls of titles so If say I have 50 .. it will take years to sell and may appear like I have a never ending supply but folks the simple truth is people think more posters are sold then really get sold... Ive sold 1000s and ive sold like 1 so its a mute thing because just because its listed by a dealer doesnt mean they are selling truckloads. as far as the same dealers selling them.. that only proves that the few that found them.. still had a bunck and im sure sell them at higher price then in past.. The star wars poster were some of the mostre reproduced poster ever.. however I agree thats many many titles have been reproduced But the issues wasnt are ther fakes,,, the question was were all the pristine inserts that surfaced Fakes,,, that was all.... and no one has addresed that fact.... they keep casting doubt that the national screen lot exsisted ever and to me given the facts makes sense since I was offered the titles at time.. ther was a find and it was the entire inventory.. perhaps the midwest was the insert depot thatw ould explain the hughe numbers lot... also why I think its true is the list of titles was broad,,,,,, but that was in 80s also they were like 3.00 cost so no one got excited except we now had some other sizes offered to dealers.. and guess what I didnt buy em because I couldnt sell tem then... and who can now with any degree of ability to sell.? In my opinion the rumors like what is happening in the entire poster business will just harm all of you and slow sales furthur because the dark rumors just make customers reluctant to buy anything.. Look at mopo people that have bought from each of you now wondering if what they posess is even real.. that did buy from each other..... because it appears the serious bootlegs are not in the 30.00 inserts but in the larger Horror high price area... Think If these people are creating bogus wouldnt it make sense that they do the high end stuff? that way they only need to see a handfull. instead of 1000s, makes more sense to me... ill stop talking about thisr as theres no eveidence being shown other then jpegs that anyone can make on a computer and photoshop . Bruce Hershenson wrote: I agree with David that the Star Wars posters may well have been printed "after hours" from the original plates. But I have never seen a single minty white insert or lobby card that appears to have been printed this way. All the ones I have seen was clearly copied from an original, resulting in a loss of print quality. Show me one insert on the weird paper stock that was only used for minty whites that has print quality that matches the original. Send it to me, and I will run great images of it in my club. Bruce On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 1:53 AM, David Lieberman <[email protected]> wrote: I repeat: they were printed several years after the films were originally released. for some of the titles they used the same "plates".........if they were available. Some were, some weren't. some of them were made using the same printing "elements"..........so they are sort of restrikes....... so whether you want to call them restrikes, sort of restrikes, reprints, repros...........whatever.........it isn't really that important........what is important is that they are NOT original. it is totally plausible that the bad guys bought a few thousand of each for just pennies a piece directly from the source 20+ years ago......and that they still have plenty of them left. A few months ago I personally acquired 600 of the FAKE star wars style c one sheets (which I gave one away for free to anyone who wanted one a few months ago...permanently marked as FAKE).....and my source still has another roll of 300 in her closet. So my point is that these fakes were produced in MASS quantities and it is totally plausible that the bad guys still have stacks of them even after all these years. I do not think they are still printing the inserts..........but that is just my opinion......and anything is possible........they could possibly still be making them, but I would be very surprised if they were. as for the minty white lobby card sets.......its probably a similar kind of story except that it is a little more plausible (in my opinion) that they are still printing them....... David Lieberman CineMasterpieces.com | 15721 N. Greenway Hayden Loop, Suite 105 -- Scottsdale, Az 85260 Vintage Original Movie Posters | 602 309 0500 | Office/Gallery Open By Appt. Only. In a message dated 10/12/2009 10:28:28 P.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, [email protected] writes: David, You could be right about an employee of the print shop doing restrikes after hours using the same press, plates and paper as the genuine strikes. But, in that case, they aren't really "fakes" at all, are they? Since they are 100% identical to those inserts which were printed by the same employee during regular business hours? What makes them fake -- the fact that they were printed after hours but nothing else? No, that doesn't float. If there's no way to identify a difference between with a microscope or chemical paper analysis, then it's not viable to say "well this one was printed after hours and so it is a fake even though it is 100% physically identical to this original one over here, which was printed 6 hours earlier during regular business hours." Now if there is a subtle difference in image size or area, a slight difference of text placement, etc., then you've got something to work with. But why would a restrike from a genuine original plate have a different image size or text position? It wouldn't. The only way that would happen is if someone used a genuine original poster for their artwork in the plate-making process and had to zoom and crop it a tiny bit to make it work (or were just sloppy and didn't notice they had cropped the artwork a tiny bit). So restrikes don't work for me as an explanation if there is a difference in image size, area, text placement or "fuzziness" of printing. With a restrike from original plates you would have none of that. The big thing that made people start wondering about the Mintys was the fact that certain specific sellers seemed to have a unlimited supply of inserts for certain titles -- and the use of inserts was fading away at the time these films were released and fewer inserts were being officially printed than in earlier decades. So, having an unlimited supply to sell is a big red flag (thus their "warehouse find" cover story). But unlimited supply doesn't fit in with your employee-after-hours-restrikes theory because surely the guy doesn't still work for that 1970's or 1980's print shop and surely the plates are still not available to him, much less the original type of paper? How come they haven't run out of the restrikes? What, this after-hours guy printed up thousands of these restrikes for this very odd variety of titles back in the late 70s and early 80s and then held onto them all these years waiting for EBay to be invented so he could dump them on the market? Doesn't compute. The "warehouse find" explanation actually seems more likely to me than that, and I don't buy the warehouse find explanation. If they were restrikes made 20- to 30- odd years ago, surely the original restrike print run would have been exhausted by now? This leads me to suspect that most of the Mintys, if not all, were not restrikes from original plates but just very good quality printing plates made using genuine original posters as the artwork for the plate making process -- and I suspect new inventory is still being printed (or could be printed). -- JR David Lieberman wrote: how many times do we have to discuss this same topic? ;) The "minty white" inserts were printed in the mid to late 1980's. They are "unauthorized" restrikes. They were most likely done "after hours" at the same place the originals were printed years before (at one of the nss printing facilities).....that is why the quality is just as good as the originals.........that is why they fooled so many people......and that is why they still fool people today. Some are virtually identical with the same art cropping etc., and some have the artwork slightly cropped. The list of titles is on our website.....some of these fake inserts include: a clockwork orange -X rated, jaws, star wars, esb, rotj, scarface, blade runner, manhattan. There were also several unauthorized restrike one sheets printed around the same time. They probably came from the same source as the minty white inserts (at least that's my humble opinion!). The manhattan style b 1sh, fast times 1sh, rocky horror 1sh, star wars a,b,c one sheets.....as well as several others. We have done several comparisons side by side and have close ups of some of them (not all) on our site. They aren't all in one place though on the website. Some of them (like scarface and manhattan) we haven't done only because we haven't had a fake one and a real one in stock at the same time so we could compare them side by side. Anybody who thinks the minty white inserts are "real".....is flat out wrong. David Lieberman CineMasterpieces.com | 15721 N. Greenway Hayden Loop, Suite 105 -- Scottsdale, Az 85260 Vintage Original Movie Posters | 602 309 0500 | Office/Gallery Open By Appt. Only. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___________________________________________________________________ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [email protected] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___________________________________________________________________ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [email protected] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. 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