Hi Gav, some thoughts inserted On 9/5/07, gav <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > fair point ian...i definitely need to clarify. > > i refer to that old chestnut - *descent* with > modification. or more accurately - ascent with > modification. the idea that homo sapiens is the > pinnacle of a chain of evolution, which reinforces > human hubris. even many 'progressive' or even > 'radical' thinkers still unconsciously assume this > paradigm. and yes even the MOQ suffers from this - but > at least it recognises it!!! (by asserting the primacy > of the Dynamic) [IG] Agree with you there we humans are a perhaps a local maximum, a blip in the grander scheme of things from our narrow perspective. But the blip in intelligence comes with responsibilities whlst it lasts.
> > i think that some few species probably did branch off > from others in the course of the millenia but > neo-darwinism fails on the grounds of where new > species *generally* come from. natural selection and > mutation are not enough. it is simply mathematically > impossible. there is something else going on. [IG] Mathematically improbable, rather than impossible, but I'd agree there are many things going on. Nuclear genetic mutations are only a part of it as you mentioned originally. > > the aboriginal people of australia say they are the > first people and that all people are descended from > them. perhaps they are right. the genetic evidence > suggests they are. [IG] Suggests they could be, and at least suggests they themselves were not decended from other lines of early hominids. > > i think animals and humans and plants were in some way > created *and* evolved. that is my gut and brain > talking: creative evolution. (anyone actually read > bergson?). [IG] I have actually, though to be honest my concentration dwindled. It's still on my bedside cabinet, so I'll be picking it up again no doubt. Anyway, I'd agree there are certainly elements of creativity and design in evolution that need explanation - recurring / repeat patterns, surges in "progress" etc. Presently I still see Dennett's view of these things, as evidence of patterns of natural engineering, natural ways that problems are solved, given previously evolved patterns in the infrastructure (not just in the reproducing DNA). But these thoughts do have to be applied over the whole range of replications from generation to generation - some acquired during develeopment as well as inherited during conception in sexually reproducing species. A tangled web. Plenty of scope for an open mind. > > remembering first principles: the source is the > dynamic creative principle. it is infinite, eternal. > it is intelligent. 'fiat lux!' why not 'fiat man' (or > monkey?). > > maybe species are 'dreamed' into existence and then > become subject to evolutioary pressure: my hybrid > theory suggestion. > > cheers > gav > > > > > > > --- ian glendinning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Gav, > > > > Even if hominids in general or Aborigines in > > particular are not > > descended from primates, and even if Aborigines are > > the oldest > > hominids (both of which claims also depend on the > > movement of the > > hominids and their possible ancestors between > > modern-day continent > > land masses, as well as the validity the specific > > genetic evidence) > > why on earth does that suggest any problem with > > neo-Darwinism ? > > > > It suggests a possible problem with (contingent) > > conclusions to date > > about the ancestral line, but not with the concept > > of ancestry itself. > > > > Interesting nevertheless. > > Ian > > > > On 9/5/07, gav <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > hiya all, > > > > > > been reading about some interesting genetic > > research > > > into human origins. > > > > > > mitochondrial DNA from all the world's races was > > > sampled. this DNA is single strand and does not > > > recombine; that is it is passed on faithfully from > > > mother to child, excepting mutations - the > > > accumulation of which are the basis for estimating > > the > > > age of the race in question. > > > > > > because recombination (the mixture of male and > > female > > > DNA at fertilisation) does not occur with > > > mitochondrial DNA the accuracy of the dating > > method is > > > better than testing nuclear DNA. > > > > > > anyhoo....some really really interesting results. > > > turns out the youngest races on the earth are the > > > caucasian and negroid, at about 40 000 - 60 000 > > years > > > old. the next oldest are the (near-extinct) red > > and > > > oriental races at 100 000 - 120 000 years old. > > > the oldest race by far is the australian > > aboriginal > > > which, based on the very high amount of > > accumulated > > > mitochondrial DNA mutations, is roughly 400 000 > > years > > > old! > > > > > > some big implications. > > > Australia is, geologically speaking, the oldest > > > continent on Earth. It seems biologically speaking > > it > > > is also! I am not sure but i think similar testing > > on > > > marsupials has shown them to be of significantly > > older > > > origin than their placental mammalian cousins. > > > > > > So if you haven't already gone AHA! then let me > > spell > > > it out: WE DIDN'T DESCEND FROM PRIMATES. there > > have > > > never been primates in australia. Neo-Darwinian > > theory > > > has less credibility than creationism!! ha! > > > > > > The aboriginal peoples have always maintained that > > > they are the first people - that they came direct > > from > > > the dreamtime. This research lends massive weight > > to > > > their claims and also throws open the mystery of > > human > > > origins once more. > > > > > > i will do some digging at get some refs. the book > > i > > > read this in - voices of the first day - is over > > at a > > > friend's. > > > > > > cheers > > > gav > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > > Sick of deleting your inbox? Yahoo!7 Mail has free > > unlimited storage. > > > > > http://au.docs.yahoo.com/mail/unlimitedstorage.html > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > > Archives: > > > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Sick of deleting your inbox? 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