At 07:18 PM 9/18/2007, you wrote: >On 9/17 Ham asked Marsha: > > > I'd like to hear why you think it is necessary to redefine > > value in order to support the basic MoQ concept. > >Marsha replied: > > There is only value. > >Ham then asked: > >And what is that, Marsha? > >And Marsha said: > > Not this, not that, not the other. ALL. > >Now that is a noble sentiment, poetically expressed. But, to my way of >thinking, it is "redefining" Value. >Why do I say this?
Hi Ham, But that's what I originally stated, that you are using the common usage of the word 'value', while the MOQ has an usage that implies more. Value = Quality = experience = event = ALL >The dictionary defines Value as "1) a fair return or equivalent in goods, >services, or money for something exchanged; 2) the monetary worth of >something: marketable price; 3) relative worth, utility or importance: >degree of excellence; 4a) a numerical quantity assigned or computed; b) the >amount or extent of a specified measurement of space, time, or quantity. >...7) something (as a principle or quality) intrinsically valuable or >desirable. Note that every one of these definitions implies relative >judgment. > >Only #7 in this list of definitions seems to apply to the 'ALL' you refer >to, and it also happens to be the only one that contains the word "quality". >Thus, Value is a measure of worth, or one could say that "the principle of >quality is to be valuable or desirable." Excluding the monetary >definitions (which involve exchange transactions), how is relative worth, >importance, or desirability measured? Why, subjectively, of course. Subjective within a system. And a system is a collection of static patterns of value. How does value become a static pattern of value? Through repetition, intensity and relationship. When you use the word 'subjectivity', it seems you are implying human subjectivity, or worse, Creator subjectivity. >Value can not measure value. It takes subjective judgment to measure >quality, excellence, or value. Without a subject capable of appreciating >the worth of something, it can have no value. I stress this point because >Value has been postulated as the primary reality by Pirsig, and you have >just defined it as such by asserting that Value is ALL. Value is >relational: it presupposes difference; namely, the difference between >subject and object. Imagine the earth before sentient life forms evolved. >Did it have value? Who would have known? You could say that it had the >"potential" for value in that it would eventually give rise to living >creatures. You could say the same thing about Mars or Jupiter, even though >it's unlikely that these planets could support life as we know it. But is >it logical to impute value to something before it is realized? Static patterns of value are relational. So yes, I can imagine Value before sentient beings. I can imagine Mars and Venus having value without humans differentiating and explaining them. Man is the measure of all things only within the pattern systems of which he is apart. And only those patterns that he thinks he understands. Will you agree that there is a limit to human understanding? It's relationships of value to relationships of value to relationships of value to relationships of value etc. etc. etc. That cannot be confined to a dictionary definition. >Value cannot be primary unless your concept of ultimate reality is >differentiated existence, subjectively realized. I assume from your >"special definition" that you exclude the possibility of a metaphysical >reality. If by 'metaphysical reality' do you mean theology? Then yes I do exclude it. >Thanks for your cryptic response, Marsha. > >--Ham There are times when I can agree that there is a correlation between yours and the MOQ, but then you go off on this anthropomorphic point-of-view, and then the similarities seem to fall apart. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
