[Ron] If I may throw in my two cents worth, Looking at the levels in A purely objective fashion is the first fallacy I believe. the levels are not a representation of an objective reality, they are an intellectual understanding of experience. experience equates to (Quality/morality/reality ) pick your objective nomenclature. The Self is a clumsy word but consciousness comes closer to the term experience. So that The MoQ offers that MoQ Morality is experience. The highest form Being pre-intellectual. The most moral.
[Krimel] Certainly the levels are presented as a taxonomic tool for helping to represent reality. But problems arise from the get go. The levels are supposed to be discrete. Yet organic chemistry is at the inorganic level. Primate societies of which ours is just one are at the biological level. And no one here except Bo seems to have a clue what the intellectual level is and no one agrees with him. Ron: I agree with him up to a point, SOM in our culture IS the intellectual Level, because culture/intellect create each other. It gives the levels Meaning within our cultural context. But, in the abstract context the Intellectual level only has meaning in an individual experience context. Thus, SOM is one of many ways to interpret reality/experience/quality. There is this abstract/concrete paradigm shift in grammar that Pirsig Flips back and forth on that creates this funky confusion. [Krimel] I don't recall much discussion from Pirsig about the "self". You say it is close to consciousness but am I not myself when I'm asleep? Heck there is even less agree about what consciousness is that what the self is. Ron: Agree, but you still have some sort of conscious/self in your dreams It is in the deep sleep mode that self or consciousness becomes almost non existent or turned down to almost comatose levels. [Krimel] As for the pre-intellectual being the highest form of Being... break that one down for me. I am no fan of anthropomorphism but rocks are pre-intellectual. Beyond that how can the intellectual level be the highest level but the pre-intellectual is the highest form of being? Ron: Consciousness involves all experience all the levels all reality, intellect Being but one mode of experience. Pre-intellectual is not the highest form Of being but the most certain of experiences. From experiencing the inorganic iron deficiency in our blood, the shoes on our feet, to the organic tumor on our kidney or the bad tuna we just ate To our emotional states about our shitty job to our intellectual interpretations of all of it that everything will get better once I get home and knock back a lager and play with my kids. Intellectual is the highest level because we are intellectual beings. Pre-intellectual is the most real and certain and moral because it is raw experience before we develop an intellectual understanding of the experience In s/o linguistic and grammatical terms. This is a quick post but I'd to pick this up tomorrow in greater detail Krim. Thanks -Ron Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
