Okay, sure, real disagreement. I see the idea of ex nihilo creation as pure Platonism, and you see its denial as the denial of newness.
My explanation of how something new comes into existence, at least at the level of ideas, is basically the same as Dewey's and Rorty's. I think Rorty talks about it in the first two chapters of CIS, and he also talks about it in "Inquiry as Recontextualization" in ORT. > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 17:59:35 +0100 > Subject: Re: [MD] What is metaphysics to you? > > Hi Matt > > Yes big disagreement here. I am with George Steiner who argues in his > Grammars of Creation > that enlightenment thought fails to address the real problems of > understanding creation and creativity, > nothing to do with magic, that's a very silly comment. Without some level of > creation out of nothing > how do you ever have anything new that is not just the same again? What you > say below looks like > a simple contradiction: our possibilities change yet nothing new ever > appears? Exactly how do > you see change? A rearrangement of given material? Call that pluralism? Let > alone the ontological > pluralism that Pirsig suggests. > > Regards > David M > > > >> >> Yes, yes, we can create new concepts and new possibilities, but I disagree >> with you whole-heartedly: none of what I had said below makes it sound >> like we only ever have the same, single set of possibilities. I just >> think, like most conceptions of God, the conception of creation ex nihilio >> is impossible, unreal, and untrue. Creation ex nihilo is otherwise known >> as magic. >> >>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 00:15:43 +0100 >>> Subject: Re: [MD] What is metaphysics to you? >>> >>> Hi Matt >>> >>> Fine, but there is also the creation of new concepts, which create new >>> possibilities to explore. >>> What you say below makes it sound like we only ever have the same and one >>> set >>> of possibilities to explore, seems important to me to see how all change >>> creates >>> new situations full of new possibilities, be they physical, neurological, >>> imaginative, or linguistic. >>> >>> David M >>> >>>> >>>> Hey David, >>>> >>>> Matt had said long ago: >>>> But to confront you [who? I can't remember] one last time with Pirsig: >>>> you >>>> said, "To watch your thoughts without judgement, to see your (human) >>>> nature is valuable." >>>> >>>> Wasn't the idea behind Pirsig's Quality that it is value, i.e. >>>> judgments, >>>> all the way down to the very core of reality? >>>> >>>> David said: >>>> Interesting, a useful point but I'd suggest some qualification. What we >>>> experience and value is generally highly conceptualised. There is always >>>> a >>>> need and possibility to think again, to sweep aside our current concepts >>>> and make a fresh start or going back to possibilities previously set >>>> aside. Such is the point of such calls to purity or back to basics. Yes, >>>> it looks dubious if you make a call to origins and purity as if such a >>>> state can be sustained. >>>> >>>> Matt: >>>> I demur. For philosophical reasons that you are generally aware of, >>>> theory-ladenness, denial of the analytic/synthetic distinction, etc., I >>>> would say "what we experience and value is [always] conceptualized." >>>> This >>>> always gets me in trouble, but 1) I don't think it's really all that >>>> radical and 2) how else do you get around Quine/Sellars/Davidson and >>>> their >>>> attacks on the dogmas? >>>> >>>> I think you're absolutely right that "there is always a need and >>>> possibility to think again, to sweep aside our current concepts and make >>>> a >>>> fresh start or going back to possibilities previously set aside." That >>>> may be the point of calls to purity and the like, but I don't think the >>>> metaphor of purity is a good one to use for such calls because it proves >>>> misleading if pushed (like Kant's analytic/synthetic distinction, or >>>> thinking that there are bare, unconceptualized experiences that one >>>> could >>>> think about). One can never wipe the entire board and start over--you >>>> always have to leave something as background. Like Sellars (roughly) >>>> said, "science is the greatest thing because it can put any claim in >>>> jeopardy--just not all at once." He said it about science, but we can >>>> generalize it. >>>> >>>> So, I take the engine of your point to be from the reminder that we >>>> always >>>> need to have the possibility to think again. I can agree, but I think it >>>> is unconnected to a need to claim that value and experience is >>>> _generally_ >>>> (as opposed to always) conceptualized and the metaphor of purity, >>>> "sweeping aside" and "fresh start." Yeah, you sweep some stuff aside, >>>> but >>>> you can't sweep everything aside. >>>> >>>> Matt >>>> >>>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>> Get in touch in an instant. Get Windows Live Messenger now. >>>> http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_getintouch_042008 >>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>> Archives: >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >>>> >>> >>> >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Windows Live SkyDrive lets you share files with faraway friends. >> http://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_skydrive_052008 >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ _________________________________________________________________ Make Windows Vista more reliable and secure with Windows Vista Service Pack 1. http://www.windowsvista.com/SP1?WT.mc_id=hotmailvistasp1banner Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
