Hi Christoffer On 2 Oct. you wrote:
> If I understand you correctly you state that socialism undermines the > social level, my natural question thus becomes: how so? Seeing as you > live in a socialist country more like my own than not perhaps you can > give me some meaningful insight here. I may have painted myself into a corner by stating that the MOQ mesh is too coarse for catching the various "isms" and then saying that socialism correspond to Q-intellect. But really, all Western political movements are (now) generally Q-intellect in the sense of accepting democracy. The naked social value is now displayed in the muslim world, just for that reason of religion is their overarching authority. > But in a general sense I also wish to have your input on this my > assertion: I understand completely that the social level is about > liberation from the biological level, or in any case, about > redirecting biological recourses into following Quality that is not > biologically derived and interpreted. The reason why I see it as the > most natural thing in the world for a MOQist to sympathise with the > general ideas and themes of Marxism is because it can be categorized > as a recipe for rearranging social patterns to serve the intellectual > level: something that is evolutionary moral in the MOQ view. > What is your input on this? You are absolutely correct about intellect's purpose, but no static level knows a limit to itself. Biology (life) will eat and proliferate until the inorganic source is depleted, Society will coerce all individuals under its "mythology" whatever its name . Look to the pure Muslim (Taleban) societies where the true believers gladly sacrifices themselves to instill fear of God (their mythology) and this goes for the 4th. level too. We must skip SOM's view of "intellect" as the thinking faculty, and adopt MOQ's view of it as objectivity that knows no limit either and will "sacrifice" society to achieve its goal. And Pirsig's point in LILA is that intellect has done its job so well that the social values of suppressing biology reels, it has (according to him) joined forces with biology in its struggle with Society by refusing to punish murder and other grave crime properly. I know this is highly controversial because without knowing the MOQ there is just SOCIETY (in the sociological sense) that is the cause of crime by not being perfect. Sweden and Norway have their armies of "sosionomar" who heaps scorn on all efforts to limit the criminals, all prisoners should be released, because there is always an OBJECTICE reason for their career, no free will. Well, I no advocate of the death penalty or dungeons, but I see Pirsig's point, however I don't see his idea that the MOQ will reform intellect by being a better intellectual pattern. Q-intellect is solely a MOQ construction and hence not easy to grasp, we so easily lapses back into a thinking faulty and that any "thought" is an intellectual and even Pirsig falls into this pit. The 4th. level is static, its value the OBJECTIVE attitude (the S/O distinction) and can by no means change its "stripes", it can only be limited by a level above it and in this respect the MOQ forms a meta-level. > And furthermore - when I (and Magnus some time ago) identify the free > market as a social level pattern (at the core), do you not agree on > this? Hmmm .... if anything I would call it a jungle,"eat or get eaten", but seriously I don't see any Q-social signs here. Let me think some more till tomorrow. > And if you make this analysis - that the free market is a social level > pattern - do you feel that it is a big leap for me to say that it is > easily identifiable that social level values, such as the hunger for > profit and the whole capitalist system, is indeed oppressing and > controlling intellectual patterns when only the knowledge that is > profitable (I.e. has social value) has a reasonable chance to develop > and grow? Ditto. By tomorrow I'll answer this. > I would greatly Value your input on this. Thanks for your confidence Christoffer. Bodvar Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
