Ham: I don't understand what you mean by "Value realizes the agent".
Hi Ham, this wasn't from Craig but from Andre; I tried to use the language you used to clarify my point but obviously this didn't work. I'll use my own (MoQ) language: value causes the subject and object, not the other way around. Ham: Are you suggesting that value is a cognitive entity with the sensibility to realize and the intellect to "deduce"? Andre; No! Value may be realised (there is no coercion), and the more we do so the better. Ham: If Value is the Creator... Andre: It is not... it is.... Ham: The allegory of Pirsig's novel may be "brilliant", but does it make metaphysical sense? For me, man is perfectly equipped to be the agent of value. He is an independent entity endowed with an exquisite sense of value from which, by experience and intellection, he constructs a world of beingness in time and space. He is able to manipulate the constituents of this environment to his advantage and communicate with others of his species to develop and maintain a value-based moral culture. We don't think of man as a complex arrangement of synapses and neurons in the brain giving rise to the illusion of self. Does it make better sense to reduce the human being to "static patterns of value drawn toward the One"? Andre: You seem to me to believe in the creationist theory. Vacuum,energy,photon,proton,molecules,organisms...Man! We are these patterns Ham whether you like it or not. These patterns combining within DQ/SQ, static latching, emergent property (I like this concept) and here we are! No kidding, we do not realise how special and lucky we are. We are inorganic SPOV's become conscious (emergent property principle??) as the free-est manifestation of this dynamic, evolutionary process to date. Yes, we are conscious being-time. We can adapt as no other static PoV can. We can create/destroy, reflect,criticise,explore, learn etc , etc. We all have this ability. Our only restriction being our need/desire to cling to static patterns. Why are we here? According to the MoQ one examines the pronoun 'we'...this 'selfappointed little editor of reality' which 'collapses the moment one examines it' (Lila p 204). This whole notion of 'awareness', consciousness', 'essence' whatever, is a piece of 'software reality, not a hardware reality'.'We' have 'invaded' these 'poor stupid bodies' leaving 'we' mystified about how all this could have happened'(Lila p 205). We are all these patterns, but not only these patterns: We are DQ/SQ, in our own 'reality'-time' our own Being-time...a moment. The more oil we slurp out of our bodies, the more coal we burn from our bones, the more ways we find to exploit our world, the more masturbatory it becomes. And while both the poles are melting, the more we need to go to the toilet. This incessant SOM drive for economic (biological) satisfaction so that (intellectually) we find our 'selves'...our 'essence' in the objects we create, in our posessions (cars, houses, children, work,wives, where we go on holidays,concubines, what intellectual books we have read lately, what plays we have seen lately) and what we can afford to eat. The reasoning responsible for acid rain, killing thousands of hectares of forests.The polluted wastes in the sea, land and air ready to contaminate us for the next 250.000 years ( atomic energy) so we can go on going to the toilet and continue to 'find' our 'selves' ...our 'essence'. Is this the sort of world you want to leave our children? You said you are a selfconfessed SOM'st. Well, this is SOM reasoning and its resultant effects and consequences. The Essence really is to find a balance between DQ and SQ. SOM is hopelessly inadequate and incompetent. The MoQ is better. Why? Because it is Morality. And, just because you do not agree with an author's lifestyle does that ipso facto mean his works are of low quality? For what it has been worth Ham. Andre Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
