Hi gav, I have a question. As a European having spent a couple of years in Oz and three in the US, I would agree with your "judgements". ie it's not a matter of sloganizing "tolerance" but judging what you find, as your experience does.
No doubt that Oz is a greater ethnic and cultural mix even that the US. Remembering that I was based in Perth, but spent time in Melbourne, Sidney (but not Brissy) and also several trips to NZ, I have a question. Whilst the "immigrant" community was ethnically diverse and seemingly integrated, I couldn't help noticing the anomaly that the marginalized down and outs were generally the Aboriginals, whereas in NZ the Maoris seemed much more integrated. Is that impression correct ? Any idea why ? Ian On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 5:42 AM, gav <[email protected]> wrote: > yo, > > i live in probably the most multicultural country on earth - australia. > we have never had a civil war and our cities are safer than those of the US > and europe, though japan is safer still. > > where i live (inner brisbane) there are large numbers of greeks and lebanese > and vietnamese. the restaurants are cheap and great. we also have african > migrants/refugees, people from all over europe and many folk from the US and > canada. there are also many hundreds of japanese and korean students. one of > my workmates and best friends is from chile, a survivor of the pinochet > regime. > > what is australian culture? australian culture IS multiculturalism. the same > is probably true of the US. platt's whole argument is absurd. how can you > argue for and against your own culture simultaneously and expect concurrence? > > i am not a fan of islam; i am not a fan of judaism or christianity either, > and i find buddhism quite boring and resignatory and male too. it is time for > religion to piss off. it has served its purpose and now is a barrier to > authentic engagement with the world. the same can be said for any and all > ideologies - they are barriers - impediments. > > pirsig does not advocate any ideology; his take on culture is essentially > leaving it to the individual (which is the intellect) to make his/her choices > for himself. simple. no need for grand theories. > > anyway all i am saying is that multiculturalism has the runs on the board > here - it works; you get a better, more peaceful society. you get more > quality. > > but multiculturalism has been attacked here too. the media tries to whip up > hysteria any chance it gets; especially with islamic communities. but the > media is shite and TV is for the retarded and i think we all know that. > > australians are an apathetic bunch; this like all things has its ups and > downs. it means we don't get whipped up easy by the powermongers, but it also > means we don't get out on the street much either. but when push comes to > shove, and its getting there, the aussies tend to be a staunch bunch....and > anarchy is nothing to be afraid of. > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Mon, 5/1/09, Platt Holden <[email protected]> wrote: > > From: Platt Holden <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [MD] Multiculturalism scam > To: [email protected] > Received: Monday, 5 January, 2009, 1:20 PM > > All: > > Those who have jumped in to passionately defend multiculturism while taking > great pleasure in personally attacking me (so much for diversity of ideas) > have chosen not only to ignore Pirsig about the intellectual need to judge > cultures but also the article that prompted me to bring up the subject in > the first place. So to bring the defenders up to date I offer the full text > of said article in the hope they will ponder the effect in the real world > of multiculturism's unexamined worship of "tolerance." I recommend > particular attention to the last sentence: > > Platt > ------- > International Herald Tribune > >From the left, a call to end the current Dutch notion of tolerance > By John Vinocur > Monday, December 29, 2008 > > AMSTERDAM: Two years ago, the Dutch could quietly congratulate themselves > on having brought what seemed to be a fair measure of consensus and reason > to the meanest intersection in their national political life: the one where > integration of Muslim immigrants crossed Dutch identity. > > In the run-up to choosing a new government in 2006, just 24 percent of the > voters considered the issue important, and only 4 percent regarded it as > the election's central theme. > > What a turnabout, it seemed - and whatever the reason (spent passions, > optimism, resignation?), it was a soothing respite for a country whose > history of tolerance was the first in 21st-century Europe to clash with the > on-street realities of its growing Muslim population. > > Since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks in the United States, the Netherlands had > lived through something akin to a populist revolt against accommodating > Islamic immigrants led by Pim Fortuyn, who was later murdered; the > assassination of the filmmaker Theo Van Gogh, accused of blasphemy by a > homegrown Muslim killer; and the bitter departure from the Netherlands of > Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a Somali woman who became a member of Parliament before > being marked for death for her criticism of radical Islam. > > Now something fairly remarkable is happening again. > > Two weeks ago, the country's biggest left-wing political grouping, the > Labor Party, which has responsibility for integration as a member of the > coalition government led by the Christian Democrats, issued a position > paper calling for the end of the failed model of Dutch "tolerance." > > It came at the same time Nicolas Sarkozy was making a case in France for > greater opportunities for minorities that also contained an admission that > the French notion of equality "doesn't work anymore." > > But there was a difference. If judged on the standard scale of caution in > dealing with cultural clashes and Muslims' obligations to their new homes > in Europe, the language of the Dutch position paper and Lilianne Ploumen, > Labor's chairperson, was exceptional. > > The paper said: "The mistake we can never repeat is stifling criticism of > cultures and religions for reasons of tolerance." > > Government and politicians had too long failed to acknowledge the feelings > of "loss and estrangement" felt by Dutch society facing parallel > communities that disregard its language, laws and customs. > > Newcomers, according to Ploumen, must avoid "self-designated > victimization." > > She asserted, "the grip of the homeland has to disappear" for these > immigrants who, news reports indicate, also retain their original > nationality at a rate of about 80 percent once becoming Dutch citizens. > > Instead of reflexively offering tolerance with the expectation that things > would work out in the long run, she said, the government strategy should be > "bringing our values into confrontation with people who think otherwise." > > There was more: punishment for trouble-making young people has to become so > effective such that when they emerge from jail they are not automatically > big shots, Ploumen said. > > For Ploumen, talking to the local media, "The street is mine, too. I don't > want to walk away if they're standing in my path. > > "Without a strategy to deal with these issues, all discussion about > creating opportunities and acceptance of diversity will be blocked by > suspicion and negative experience." > > And that comes from the heart of the traditional, democratic European left, > where placing the onus of compatibility on immigrants never found such > comfort before. > > It's a point of view that makes reference to work and education as > essential, but without the emphasis that they are the single path to > integration. > > Rather, Labor's line seems to stand on its head the old equation of jobs- > plus-education equals integration. Conforming to Dutch society's social > standards now comes first. Strikingly, it turns its back on cultural > relativism and uses the word emancipation in discussing the process of > outsiders' becoming Dutch. > > For the Netherlands' Arab and Turkish population (about 6 percent of a > total of 16 million) it refers to jobs and educational opportunities as > "machines of emancipation." Yet it also suggests that employment and > advancement will not come in full measure until there is a consciousness > engagement in Dutch life by immigrants that goes far beyond the present > level. > > Indeed, Ploumen says, "Integration calls on the greatest effort from the > new Dutch. Let go of where you come from; choose the Netherlands > unconditionally." Immigrants must "take responsibility for this country" > and cherish and protect its Dutch essence. > > Not clear enough? Ploumen insists, "The success of the integration process > is hindered by the disproportionate number of non-natives involved in > criminality and trouble-making, by men who refuse to shake hands with > women, by burqas and separate courses for women on citizenship. > > "We have to stop the existence of parallel societies within our society." > > And the obligations of the native Dutch? Ploumen's answer is, "People who > have their roots here have to offer space to traditions, religions and > cultures which are new to Dutch society" - but without fear of expressing > criticism. "Hurting feelings is allowed, and criticism of religion, too." > > The why of this happening now when a recession could accelerate new social > tensions, particularly among nonskilled workers, has a couple of > explanations. > > A petty, political one: It involves a Labor Party on an uptick, with its > the party chief, Wouter Bos, who serves as finance minister, showing > optimism that the Dutch can avoid a deep recession. The cynical take has > him casting the party's new integration policy as a fresh bid to > consolidate momentum ahead of elections for the European Parliament in > June. > > A kinder, gentler explanation (that comes, remarkably, from Frits > Bolkestein, the former Liberal Party leader, European commissioner, and no > friend of the socialists, who began writing in 1991 about the enormous > challenge posed to Europe by Muslim immigration): > > "The multi-cultis just aren't making the running anymore. It's a brave step > towards a new normalcy in this country. " > > > International Herald Tribune > >From the left, a call to end the current Dutch notion of tolerance > By John Vinocur > Monday, December 29, 2008 > > AMSTERDAM: Two years ago, the Dutch could quietly congratulate themselves > on having brought what seemed to be a fair measure of consensus and reason > to the meanest intersection in their national political life: the one where > integration of Muslim immigrants crossed Dutch identity. > > In the run-up to choosing a new government in 2006, just 24 percent of the > voters considered the issue important, and only 4 percent regarded it as > the election's central theme. > > What a turnabout, it seemed - and whatever the reason (spent passions, > optimism, resignation?), it was a soothing respite for a country whose > history of tolerance was the first in 21st-century Europe to clash with the > on-street realities of its growing Muslim population. > > Since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks in the United States, the Netherlands had > lived through something akin to a populist revolt against accommodating > Islamic immigrants led by Pim Fortuyn, who was later murdered; the > assassination of the filmmaker Theo Van Gogh, accused of blasphemy by a > homegrown Muslim killer; and the bitter departure from the Netherlands of > Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a Somali woman who became a member of Parliament before > being marked for death for her criticism of radical Islam. > > Now something fairly remarkable is happening again. > > Two weeks ago, the country's biggest left-wing political grouping, the > Labor Party, which has responsibility for integration as a member of the > coalition government led by the Christian Democrats, issued a position > paper calling for the end of the failed model of Dutch "tolerance." > > It came at the same time Nicolas Sarkozy was making a case in France for > greater opportunities for minorities that also contained an admission that > the French notion of equality "doesn't work anymore." > > But there was a difference. If judged on the standard scale of caution in > dealing with cultural clashes and Muslims' obligations to their new homes > in Europe, the language of the Dutch position paper and Lilianne Ploumen, > Labor's chairperson, was exceptional. > > The paper said: "The mistake we can never repeat is stifling criticism of > cultures and religions for reasons of tolerance." > > Government and politicians had too long failed to acknowledge the feelings > of "loss and estrangement" felt by Dutch society facing parallel > communities that disregard its language, laws and customs. > > Newcomers, according to Ploumen, must avoid "self-designated > victimization." > > She asserted, "the grip of the homeland has to disappear" for these > immigrants who, news reports indicate, also retain their original > nationality at a rate of about 80 percent once becoming Dutch citizens. > > Instead of reflexively offering tolerance with the expectation that things > would work out in the long run, she said, the government strategy should be > "bringing our values into confrontation with people who think otherwise." > > There was more: punishment for trouble-making young people has to become so > effective such that when they emerge from jail they are not automatically > big shots, Ploumen said. > > For Ploumen, talking to the local media, "The street is mine, too. I don't > want to walk away if they're standing in my path. > > "Without a strategy to deal with these issues, all discussion about > creating opportunities and acceptance of diversity will be blocked by > suspicion and negative experience." > > And that comes from the heart of the traditional, democratic European left, > where placing the onus of compatibility on immigrants never found such > comfort before. > > It's a point of view that makes reference to work and education as > essential, but without the emphasis that they are the single path to > integration. > > Rather, Labor's line seems to stand on its head the old equation of jobs- > plus-education equals integration. Conforming to Dutch society's social > standards now comes first. Strikingly, it turns its back on cultural > relativism and uses the word emancipation in discussing the process of > outsiders' becoming Dutch. > > For the Netherlands' Arab and Turkish population (about 6 percent of a > total of 16 million) it refers to jobs and educational opportunities as > "machines of emancipation." Yet it also suggests that employment and > advancement will not come in full measure until there is a consciousness > engagement in Dutch life by immigrants that goes far beyond the present > level. > > Indeed, Ploumen says, "Integration calls on the greatest effort from the > new Dutch. Let go of where you come from; choose the Netherlands > unconditionally." Immigrants must "take responsibility for this country" > and cherish and protect its Dutch essence. > > Not clear enough? Ploumen insists, "The success of the integration process > is hindered by the disproportionate number of non-natives involved in > criminality and trouble-making, by men who refuse to shake hands with > women, by burqas and separate courses for women on citizenship. > > "We have to stop the existence of parallel societies within our society." > > And the obligations of the native Dutch? Ploumen's answer is, "People who > have their roots here have to offer space to traditions, religions and > cultures which are new to Dutch society" - but without fear of expressing > criticism. "Hurting feelings is allowed, and criticism of religion, too." > > The why of this happening now when a recession could accelerate new social > tensions, particularly among nonskilled workers, has a couple of > explanations. > > A petty, political one: It involves a Labor Party on an uptick, with its > the party chief, Wouter Bos, who serves as finance minister, showing > optimism that the Dutch can avoid a deep recession. The cynical take has > him casting the party's new integration policy as a fresh bid to > consolidate momentum ahead of elections for the European Parliament in > June. > > A kinder, gentler explanation (that comes, remarkably, from Frits > Bolkestein, the former Liberal Party leader, European commissioner, and no > friend of the socialists, who began writing in 1991 about the enormous > challenge posed to Europe by Muslim immigration): > > "The multi-cultis just aren't making the running anymore. It's a brave step > towards a new normalcy in this country. " > > > . > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter inbox. Take > a look http://au.docs.yahoo.com/mail/smarterinbox > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
