Ron --
It simply comes down to a matter of opinion. You and Michael need a god in your lives, pure and simple. That's fine, I respect that. I however do not. And that's pretty much the end of it.
It's not quite that simple. Michael and I recognize a need in our lives, which may or may not be "a god". Speaking for myself, I do not believe in a personal deity that creates the world at a point in time and then sits back to judge human behavior. This is my understanding of theism. I DO believe in a "first cause", an uncreated source that transcends existential reality while constituting its ground or essence. Does that make me a "theist"? Frankly, I don't really care.
What concerns me, and I suspect Michael as well, is that the MoQ is a belief system founded on Quality which its author equates with Value. Yet he posits this value in a realm of its own, independent of man, in effect making Value (Quality) the fundamental reality. I continue to maintain that this is epistemologically unsustainable. There is no such thing as "unrealized value". Realization is psycho-emotional, which means that value presupposes a cognizant agent. I do not accept the view that atoms, stones, and planets are cognizant agents, or that the universe evolves to betterness as a Quality teleology. The universe and its experienced components are the appearance of Value actualized by the finite mind of man. None of this happens without a primary source.
Conceptual extention beyond immediate experience is wishful thinking in my opinion. Put together a decent argument and we'll talk.
The most "decent" argument I can offer was put forth by the Roman philosopher Lucretius (99-55 B.C.) in his epic poem "De rerum naturahis": Ex nihil nihilo est (Nothing can come from nothingness). And we have talked before, Ron, only to prove that it is fruitless to argue about one's beliefs. I'm convinced that what we believe is a choice to be made freely by each individual, and I don't want to be accused of imposing my beliefs on those who do not find them acceptable.
Why is the belief in God better than not having a belief in God? Show me some practicle benefits, I'm open to it, really.
Again, personal beliefs do not necessarily have "practical" use, unless they are of the pragmatic kind derived from scientific principles. However, it gives me satisfaction to understand existential reality as a valuistic system in which man is the choice-maker, as opposed to a chance occurrence or "accident of nature" that begins and ends with conscious awareness.
...Theism was my problem. It had paralysed me and made me powerless. I hold my own destiny now, I hold my own power and my own life. I control this reality of mine not God. I have grown up, I have grown past needing a parent. I am my own autonomous individual, I am my own free agent. I make my own purpose and meaning.
I was raised in a nominally Christian household where religion was a "non-paralyzing" basis for morality. I managed to escape the mythology of Christendom without despising it, and became a free-thinker with an intense interest in philosophy . You see, that's why I don't consider myself a theist. In fact, Essentialism frees one's life from dogmatic restrictions and cultural traditions, even to the extent of elevating value-sensibility above the rule of law. If everyone was an essentialist, we would have no criminals or brutality, no cause for war, no unbridled greed or pompous preaching. We would be free to create the world of peace and harmony that all compassionate individuals innately value and wish for their fellow creatures.
I also wanted to thank you for pointing this out and simplifying the argument, after reading your post more thoroughly, catching more of the meaning and intent behind your words, you made a fairly accurate appraisel and concluded very nicely. I apologize for coming off kinda krassly. I think we were beginning to get annoyed with each other.
That postscript is appreciated, Ron. I'm glad you've read me "more thoroughly", and no apologies are necessary. We all tend to get carried away with our own beliefs and quarrel over labels, terms, and definitions used by others. I would ask only that we acknowledge life as we find it, including the desire to know its ultimate reality. Beyond that, truth is mere speculation and hypothesis leading to belief.
Essentially yours, Ham Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
