Dan: Hey Krimel. I look at the MOQ as kind of a living document. It changes according to who is using it since each of us has a unique background. In addition, the MOQ allows for something "better." I think it's good to question Robert Pirsig's ideas as you do above. He's said there's room for improvement. I don't see a problem with chapter 11 in LILA. But that doesn't mean there isn't.
[Krimel] We agree on this. Certainly everyone here see touches the elephant in a different place. Dan: Conventionally the external world exists objectively and apart from the internal subjective world. Robert Pirsig unites them in the MOQ. Objective reality corresponds to inorganic and biological patterns of value while subjective reality to social and intellectual patterns. These levels are independent of each other but nothing is independent of the levels since they all operate at the same time. A human being is a collection of all four levels plus Dynamic Quality. [Krimel] Ah, but sometimes I imagine what it would be like to be a cloud or a bug or a bolt of lightning. And sometimes I think of myself as object or a character in a story. My relations with others get refitted as objective narratives. Dan: If there are relationships, processes, etc. that exist independently, how would we know? It's possible, sure. But it is a moot point so far as I can see. [Krimel] Certainly agnosticism is probably the most comfortable position. > [Krimel] > So yes, "inorganic patterns, biological patterns, social patterns and > intellectual patterns. They are exhaustive. That's all there are." But > "That's all there are," in this particular fertile plain. One could look at > the totality of "everything" and carve into any number of different levels > that would also be exhaustive. Dan: Sure. Like Bo's SOL. But then, it wouldn't be the MOQ. [Krimel] My point is that the four levels are the MoQ either. They are a valley we can observe through the MoQ. The MoQ is about valleys. I think Pirsig offers more than just trading one valley for another. Dan: The levels aren't reality; they're a way of ordering reality. Again, a person can order reality any way they wish, but it will not be the MOQ. [Krimel] Right the levels are a conceptual scheme. The MoQ is a conceptual scheme about conceptual schemes of which the levels are held up as a GOOD example. Dan: It seems as if those energies and relationships exist independently of your perception on account of the way you've learned to view the world. To me, there is nothing independent, period. Everything is dependent on the arising of perception. That is how I've learned to view the world. Who's right? It doesn't matter. [Krimel] I have learned lots of different ways to view the world. I agree that perception is absolutely critical and that is why I think it is important to study it and ask hard questions about how it works. Dan: We shall have to agree to disagree then. It's been Good to talk to you again, thank you. [Krimel] Backatcha, have a good evening! Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
