> Krimel -- > I was tempted to say that that is still what the US is about > but there is problem in your statement. I would be with you > if you had said, "... freedom for individuals to pursue their > own goals with the least possible regulation and interference." > Government is not the only source of interference and > regulation. The United State came into existence at the dawn > of the industrial revolution. There was nothing in colonial > experience that would indicate the turmoil in economic > understanding that would arise in the wake of transforming > agrarian societies into industrial societies.
[Ham] Turmoil in economic understanding? Why not "lessons to be learned"? Besides, I was speaking of the constitutional basis of our free republic, which is not primarily economic. [Krimel] My point was exactly that the constitution does not endorse a particular form of economics. In addition I meant to say that the founders had no way to foresee transnational economic entities with the power of nations. They offered no checks and balances for such entities because they were science fiction in 1789. The founders purposefully constructed checks and balance for every form of accumulated power conceivable to them, executive, legislative and judiciary. At the dawn they could not see the midday shadows of the industrial age. They were not psychics. [Ham] The Founding Fathers sought to limit government power, not the wealth of the people. The "positive feedback loop" is the accumulation of wealth that represents "the pursuit of happiness" associated with private property. [Krimel] Here is a biological example: Brewer's yeast eats sugar and shits alcohol. The more sugar you feed it, the more alcohol it shits. That is a positive feedback system. Eventually the yeast finds itself in an environment partially composed of its own shit. When the shit ratio hits 20% Yeast cells die happy In puddles of their own filth. With nothing in the system To modulate the ratio Of sugar to shit Boom and bust Is what you get. Wealth like Power can be and has been defined in many different ways. Caution is advised when either becomes concentrated. [Ham] Not only did a limited government ensure this freedom, it provided the individual incentive needed for the industrial economy to follow. Economic power is generated by the people who produce and market the goods of commerce. [Krimel] Seriously, Ham, the industrial economy was its own reward. For over a century power was allowed to concentrate. Pirsig talks a lot of about the Victorians. The apex of the Victorian era was the Gilded Age. Carnegie, Rockefeller, Vanderbilt, Astor and Flagler became legends While my family tree endured Those 15 year cycles of boom and bust. Yours too, I suspect. Whose interests should the government be seeing to? My family and friend? My neighbors and their kids The community I live in? A few rich white guys? The kind of economic power or production the founders and Adam Smith knew about was farming, trades and crafts. Both Smith and Jefferson were deeply suspicious of corporations even in their embryonic form. They had only a hint of what would come. Marx certainly struck a lot of nerves with his analysis of who was getting shafted during all that booming and busting. The suppression of Marx's ideas with violence and intimidation is hardly the sign of a free society. Nothing in the constitution endorses this. [Ham] Until progressive taxation was adopted in 1913, producers were free to keep or invest the rewards of their labors, while the federal government got along quite well on foreign tariffs and a two-year public tax to pay for the Civil War. Apparently you believe that economic power must be artificially restricted to prevent "radical growth", which is contrary to a free market economy. [Krimel] The programs Warren speaks of in the quote I gave act as resistors. In electronics a resistor slows the rate of electron flow. It is like friction. Those regulations introduced negative feedback into the economic system. This smoothed out those oscillations of boom and bust. When they are removed the oscillations resumed. It's like a manic depressive on lithium. In the end this was the final undoing of Marxism. Progressive taxation was purposefully designed to introduce negative feedback into the socio-economic system. Evidence from nearly every area of social science converges on the idea that social stratification can be harmful to people's health. I see no need to pamper the upper class. They take care of themselves. They thrive in can see it in every form of government: Hindu Brahmin, European aristocrats, Bishops and Cardinals, Plantation owners, Robber Barons, Hedge fund managers. They certainly are pernicious, persistence And not particular about ideology. [Ham] The Founders in their wisdom did not wish to meddle with the commerce of their new republic. "Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States." Congress also was empowered to coin money and regulate (not "control") commerce with foreign nations and between the states, establish post offices, raise armies (two-year limit on appropriations), maintain a navy, and promote the advance of science and the arts. That was about the extent of it (in the days of limited government). [Krimel] The Commerce Clause gives congress the power: "To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes..." If there is a difference between "regulate" and "control" I suspect it is one of degree. I don't think any power on heaven or earth has the power to control the economy. But adding resistance, tightening static latches, is exactly what governments are instituted among men to do. [Ham] The idea that we can dismiss the supreme law of the land for the sake of social equality [Krimel] What our government offers is equal protection and equal opportunity for its citizens. That is what the supreme law of the land ensures. [Ham] or some new understanding of "global order" [Krimel] My God I hope we achieve some new understand. Seeing the new world In the old way Seems rather like Hallucinating to me. [Ham] with impugnity is a screwball approach to governance which can only lead us back to the tyranny that our Founders understood from first-hand experience. [Krimel} The only kind of government the founders had experience with was monarchy. Advocating monarchy would be kind of screwy. We are in agreement then? [Ham] Yes, I've read Skinner's 'Walden Two' and am quite familiar with Watson's Behaviorist school. That theory is fine for training monkeys or teaching skills to young children. When applied to adults or -- heaven forbid -- imposed by an absolute state on its citizens, you annul value sensibility and individual freedom, ending up with fascism, which our constitutional Founders also understood well and warned us against. [Krimel] Both behavioral and psychoanalytic psychology has been applied to wide spread manipulation public opinion since at least the Wilson Administration. What to your think opinion polls measure? They measure changes in public perception for the benefit of those who seek to alter it. They like so many things annul our freedom. Most times it seems to be gone altogether. But I think there are two key points. First is you seem to think that unless wealth is in private hands it is not wealth at all. This is simplistic, wrong and it has never in history been true. The air and water are common wealth Our public buildings and parks, Our roads and schools are public wealth. The Wisdom and Lore of the All the People is public wealth Investing in public wealth enriches everyone. Skimping serves no one. We must have both public and private wealth. They are Yin and Yang to be balanced by the legislative. You also misunderstand the role of government. It is designed to be static and to create stasis. Governments are instituted to make the rules. Whatever rules it makes, Some will find a way to make do Some will find a way to make out No government can achieve "control" There is a drug market in prisons. But government can regulate. Add a bit of resistance here Create a bit of stimulus there As Lao Tsu teaches: "When the hand of the ruler is light, the people do not contrive, but when the country is severely ruled, the people grow in cunning." Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
