Ant said "Unsurprisingly, I tend to agree" with DMB. I say, unsurprisingly I tend to agree with Ant.
And tend is the right word, because I also say that we are tending to philosophology here in debating a term like "relativism". My interests anyway, are in MoQ as a living philosophy, but I can wait. As you were guys. Regards Ian On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 6:35 AM, Ant McWatt<[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Dave B stated to Steve Peterson, August 18th: > > > > " To cite the most relevant and familiar example, Pirsig also felt the need > to deny relativism in both books despite his rejection of SOM. He felt the > need > to dispute this not just for his critics or people like Rigel but he also > disputes Plato's charges against the Sophists…" > > > > > > Ant McWatt comments: > > > > Unsurprisingly, I’d tend to agree. From my reading of texts such as Mario > Untersteiner's "The Sophists" (1954), it seems highly unlikely that > Sophists such as Protagoras were relativists (as Pirsig understands the > term). In this context, texts such as Plato's "Theaetetus" are > a form of propaganda designed to sway the reader towards dialectic rather than > rhetoric; towards the “bean counter” rather than the poet… > > > > Plato's works are, of course, available on the Internet or, your local > bookshop > while, on the other hand, Protagoras's works (such as "The Truth") > are largely lost or stuck in libraries buried in lava (such as the “Villa > of the Papyri” in Herculaneum) or politics (such as the texts held by the > Vatican). Until someone has the skill/inclination/finances/political will > to retrieve Protagoras's texts, we're stuck with what Plato (a hostile > witness) > chooses to tell us about them. > > However, if you read (the roots of the MOQ in) F.S.C. > Northrop’s “The Meeting of East and West”, you will see that it is towards a > universal intellectually guided world-view (to underlie a universal moral > code) > rather than a relativist free-for-all (largely guided by socially orientated > local traditions) that Northrop (and, subsequently, Robert Pirsig, his > pragmatist > student) was striving for. > > Moreover, if you keep in mind that Pirsig replaces Truth > with the Good as the primary metaphysical chess piece in the MOQ then you > won't > go far wrong in understanding why he thinks his form of pragmatism is not a > form of relativism. For instance, “man > is the measure of all things” because human beings can analyse and grade all > four levels of static value patterns (from the inorganic to the intellectual) > while animals such as pigs largely follow instinct (i.e. pre-coded biological > patterns) and are, therefore, limited to valuing only the lowest two static > levels (i.e. inorganic and biological patterns). > > > > Finally, why is Pirsig correct in his thinking and Plato wrong (about the > priority of the Good over the Truth)? I’ll leave this question to Dr > Christoph Bartneck (of Eindhoven University) and the following paragraph taken > from his recent academic paper about the MOQ: > > > > “While one could use dialectic reason to discuss if the good is absolute or > > relative, it cannot be used to justify the superiority of truth above > > the good. Plato’s premise that dialectic (or reason) “comes before > > everything else” is clearly erroneous. Dialectic presupposes knowledge > > of what is valuable and good, else why choose dialectic as a method and > > not the tossing of a die [25]. Scientists sometimes refuse to target > > their science towards utilitarian goals and demand that science should > > be conducted out of pure curiosity. Science should be aimed at the > > understanding of the world and free of values. But following Plato’s > > error this is impossible. Preferring to know about the world is already > > a value judgment.” > > > > www.bartneck.de/publications/2009/designScienceMetaphysicsQuality > > > > > > . > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows Live Messenger: Celebrate 10 amazing years with free winks and > emoticons. > http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/157562755/direct/01/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
