Greetings, Bo --
Welcome to the new year! It has been some time since we last spoke.
Hi Ham
There is intrinsic truth in the "man-measure" statement of
Protagoras that neither the law of the excluded middle
nor the incompleteness of knowledge can refute. I ran
across a slightly different translation of that dictum in the
Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy:
"Of all things the measure is man, of the things that are,
that [or 'how'] they are, and of things that are not, that
[or 'how'] they are not."
Interesting, but I'm not very interested in more somish ruminating
of this issue. Don't you understand that there was no "man" before
the intellectual (S/O) level. There is no reference before the Greeks
to "man" (as a subject) opposed to the possibility that "the measure"
resides in some (objective) realm outside of "man". I know that this
is the historical view that you love so much ( :-), but it IS how the
MOQ must be approached.
"Interesting, but not interested." Right away you pose a logical
contradiction.
No, I do not understand why man had to wait for an intellectual level to
come along and give him an identity. What could intellect have possibly been
without a cognizant agent, and what was man before he became a "subject"?
Your evolutionary concept defies anything we know about epistemology.
Now, Pirsig allocated some Quality importance to Protagoras'
sentence, but I guess (I have heard) everyone claimed "Aretê"
in those days and as the Sophists were contemporaries of Plato
they no longer promoted the Homeric (social) Aretê. (I guess
they regarded it as some remote past) they were as "intellectual"
(somists) as Plato & Co - they merely were its subjectivists.
The Philosophy Dictionary says: "Arete is ...identified with what enables a
person to live well or successfully, although whether virtue is then just a
means to successful life or is an essential part of the activity of living
well becomes controversial. According to Aristotle the various virtues
consist in knowing how to strike a mean between opposing vices of excess and
defect. Greek thought also paves the way for the Christian ideal that the
fullest development of arete for human beings consists in a self-sufficient
life of contemplation and wisdom."
I'll settle for "value" or "virtue" as the meaning of Arete. Neither has
particular relevance to intellect.
Perhaps this is what you hints to in this paragraph
This brings up the question of "subjective" vs. "objective" truth, a
distinction which Pirsigians probably won't acknowledge. However,
inasmuch as the experience of Quality is the foundation of the MoQ,
and it is Man, after all, who experiences, you folks should have no
problem with the proposition that Man is the _qualitative_ measure
of all things. That leaves "objective truth" hanging in limbo.
But your Pilate like "Indeed, just what is objective truth?" shows that
you have slept through MOQ class.
The suggestion that your epistemology represents Truth is even more arrogant
than Pilate's question.
I know you mean well, Bo. You are dedicated and consistent in your
presentation of the Intellectual Level. But it confuses intellection (the
rational interpretation of experience) with intelligence (the body of
intellectual knowledge). Intellect is a distinctly human capability, not an
extracorporeal "level". There was no intellect before man (unless some
extra-terrestrial creature possessed it), and if all cognitive creatures
ceased to exist there would be no intellect anywhere.
I may have slept through MoQ 102, but I challenge you and Mr. Pirsig to
demonstrate how intellect can exist apart from cognitive awareness. If they
are one and the same, then where is awareness in the absence of a cognitive
agent? (I don't believe in animism, so please don't tell me that the
universe itself is cognizant.)
Thanks for your interest. Even if you're not (really), I would really be
interested in your answer to my question.
Essentially yours,
Ham
Moq_Discuss mailing list
Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
Archives:
http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
