Krimel, Mati: Point, counter point, Point counter, etc. ... I think it is clear that you have a different perspective and understanding of what intellect. But for now I will continue this process I don't really know to what end. :-)
> [Krimel] > Intellectual patterns are not thoughts, they are shared thoughts. When > Grampa Uga sat around the campfire spinning tales about the Great Bear in > the sky, his story was an intellectual pattern. It may have served a social > function but it was an intellectual pattern. Mati: I think it is great that you see that intelligence or as you say intellectual patterns served social patterns. So when did intellectual patterns free themselves from the social level and how? > When Euclid consolidated mathematical thinking into "The Element" the work > he produced was an intellectual pattern. It is easy to see that "The > Elements" is a different from Grampa Uga's sky bear story. But they are both > intellectual patterns just as a bronze tip is different from a stone point. > But all four, the book, the tale, the tip and point are all intellectual > patterns and they are all part of the intellectual level. Mati: I have read the "The Element" and likely written after Aristotle but I doubt that it had a direct impact based on s/o split given it's relative closness to time. But I could be wrong on this. The question is to what end does the story serve? The social level or intellectual? > [Mati:] > It was a basis from which the domination of social level had the capacity to > end. > > [Krimel] > OK, look this "domination of social level" is not going to end. Not now, not > ever. We are primates. Social patterns are encoded in our DNA. We may be > able to intellectually identify our social patterns and try to modify them > intelligently. But the best we can do is exchange one set of social patterns > for another. Mati: Social patterns are encoded in our DNA? If a child is raised in the wild we clearly see a being that only beholded the biological level, there are no conventional social values. He may be a social creature but he must learn those social patterns through some kind of communication/language that are beyound the biological level. Just so you understand my background in education has provided me the experiences that reienforce the idea that we need to be able to communicate our social values in order for them to learn. Without this communication bridge, conventional social patterns cannot have a chance to take hold. > [Krimel] > Look around the world and you will find that every primitive culture had > arrowheads. Snip....... Mati: And I quote Pirsig...." But if one studies the early books of the Bible or if one studies the sayings of primitive tribes today, the intellectual level is conspicuously absent." >SOM is an intellectual tool. Mati: We agree, and more so it was a tool that was able to deliver us from the social level like no other tool we had before. > But paintings and tools are intellectual patterns regardless of the function > they serve. Mati: I once wondered the same thing. But that doesn't make sense related to timing and the dawn of intellect as a seperate level not beholden to the social level. So Art itself is not a litmus test for intellect. Art is great, it is important and I believe that intellect perhaps can be conveyed through Art, but Art itself is not by it existence a default for intellect. > [Krimel] > What ZMM and Lila show us is that like inorganic, biological and social > patterns, intellectual patterns evolve. Mati: No Arguement. > [Mati:] > MoQ is perhaps the first major metaphysical breakthrough in 2500 years, time > will tell. > > [Krimel] > The MoQ is merely a restatement and refinement of Taoism which has been > around for 2500 years. I think the clock has spoken. Mati: In 2005 in Liverpool Pirsig was very gracious in saying that his ideas, MoQ are based on ideas that were not new. But give him credit for uliminating SOM and giving us a formal metaphysical construct with MOQ. As to when it takes hold within society and we can point to changes accredited to it, well the clock just started ticking again .... :-) Sincerely, Mati Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
