Ham, IMHO you are just banging your head against a wall, hoping for understanding here. If you enjoy the challenge, great, more power to you. Mark
On Feb 10, 2010, at 11:16:54 AM, "Ham Priday" <[email protected]> wrote: Steven -- > It doesn't sound like you understood anything much that I said. > You are irked that I haven't defined essence or defended > anti-essentialism, but that is a whole other conversation. The thread under which you introduced your manifesto of pragmatism was "Demanding Evidence from Theists." Your preamble states that: "As anti-essentialists, we pragmatists don't want to think of religion as the sort of thing that has an essence." Why does a pragmatist have to think of religion at all, if not for his conclusion that theists lack evidence for their beliefs? Yes, I am disappointed that a participant in this elite forum would declare "essence" an invalid philosophical concept, "the sort of thing we pragmatists don't want to think about." Wouldn't you be "irked" if I (an essentialist) posted an essay asserting that pragmatists are atheists who don't believe in anything that doesn't have utilitarian value? > You are conflating the notion of religion as a whole with specific > religions. My point is that there is no particular way to practice > religion. > Specific religions on the other hand are often thought of as having > essences. People frequently claim that so-and-so who says he is a > Christian is not REALLY a Christian because of X or Y or Z. Steve, there is no such thing as "religion as a whole". Religion is a set of attitudes, beliefs, and practices mandated or authorized by scriptural law or a particular religious institution. This is what distinguishes religious movements from secular society. Satanic worhip is a religious practice, as are Voodoism and Scientism. I would venture to say that Nihilism, of the kind you describe for the pragmatic atheist, is also a religious persuasion -- especially if it's a 'lock-step' movement. > I thought I was defending certain beliefs from the obligation > for evidence. I must not have read my own essay carefully enough. Where do you defend (or as dmb corrrectly suggested "exempt") believers from this obligation? "We want our beliefs to cohere with our other beliefs," you insist. So, for you, the obligation is that one's beliefs must evidence pragmatic coherence. They must be "justified" by their efficacy in achieving a collective goal or project. I submit that what you've described isn't a "belief" but a mandate for socially acceptable behavior, such as has been attempted in Utilitarianism, Socialism, Communism, and other collectivist systems. But what takes the cake is your assertion that "the point of holding beliefs is not to seek Truth but to gratify particular desires." This absurd notion exempts beliefs of not only the religious and anti-theist, but of the sadist, pedophile, rapist, thief, and murderer, as well. If the pragmatist's only value is Utility, there is little hope for our technology-driven society. Thanks for your edification, Steve. Essentially speaking, Ham _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > Ham: > Later on, you say "the point of holding beliefs is not to > seek Truth but to gratify particular desires," that "we need to > try to get our beliefs to cohere with [others'] beliefs." > > Steve: > Yes I did. Do you disagree? > Ham: > Man has an innate need for spirituality which each of us expresses > as a set of personal beliefs. If the aim of the "pragmatist atheist" is > the uniformity of beliefs without essence, evidence, truth, or faith, > my guess would be that 'Atheistic Hope' is a delusion. > > Steve: > I don't know where you got the idea that the aim of pragmatism is > uniformity of beliefs. > > Best, > Steve Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
