Hi Andre (Platt and DMB mentioned) Is this your announced questionnaire for me?
25 April Bodvar before: > > Right, SOM is the system - the metaphysics - that declares morals > > to be subjective - to reside in our minds (it doesn't really > > declare them "illegal") Andre: > As to the first part of your sentence i.e. 'subjective' therefore > 'minds' idea was coined by Rene Descartes. He died 360 years ago and > has been buried most definately by the MOQ which sees 'subjective' > as a completely different set of value patterns. Bodvar now: But aren't we supposed to look back on history from the MOQ point of view and Descartes is declared by Pirsig as the "cointer" of SOM's mind/matter variety. > > but (and here's the crux) if SOM's arrival from the Aretê? > A big IF indeed, as dmb has pointed out arete isn't social level > stuff. It was Quality the Sophists were teaching!!!...dharma. You > have 'reduced' Quality to the social level and have not recognised > it as a possible social level expression.But even this is limiting. > Read Homer carefully...it clearly states excellence in all > areas...not just the social. As said to DMB, the the Trojan War times and heroes that ZAMM exemplifies as displaying Aretê, was the social value's heyday if anything is. Need I repeat the LILA quote that says so? DMB knew no other escape route than declaring it straw-something. And The Sophists were the subjectivists (idealists) of the budding SOM who opposed the objectivists, this is the only way to harmonize ZAMM and the MOQ. There are only the static levels and their dynamic spawning of new levels, at no time in history did DQ rule. Your "read Homer ...etc." is hilarious, Homer was submerged in Q- social value, it was all he saw, like you and the weak-interpreters are submerged in intellect. > > and MOQ's from SOM > I doubt this very much. I maintain the MOQ is not from SOM You HAVE to doubt it, no doubt! > > all takes place within an "intellect" which isn't MOQ's 4th level > I thought you just said that the intellectual level as MOQ is a > moral level The 4th. intellectual level is supposed to be a static quality level (which purpose is to control the social level) but you weak-lings wants to turn it into a mind-like realm where concepts are formulated and resides. > > but good old MIND and SOM is back .... > The MOQ suggests to drop the idea/notion of 'mind' altogether. You > seem to be the only one still using this 'outmoded' > concept...because you are still stuck in SOL thinking. (I think) The MOQ rejects the subject/object (mind/matter) distinction as existences deepest - i.e. fundamental - divide, but keeps it as its highest static (intellectual) good. Thus we may freely speak about mind and matter while having MOQ's context in - um - mind. This is the SOL interpretation and there I'm stuck, you bet > > The only thing that makes sense and avoids all logical bends and new > > Q-generated platypis is the SOM as MOQ's 4th. level - all of it, every > > last bit, that way the Arete-SOM shift was the social-intellectual one > > and ZAMM is harmonized with LILA and the MOQ. > As Mr. Pirsig has pointed out to you (Annotn. 133) this 'conclusion > undermines the MOQ'. Summon your wits Andre. Platt had said that the MOQ is a "SOM document" and its plain that Pirsig's presentation of the Quality Idea is a most "objective" such. HAD to be, it would not have the proverbial snowball in hell's chance if he said he had had it delivered from God - which were how the things were presented in religious times (social level in moqspeak). It HAD to be delivered in an OBJECTIVE (=intellectual) way. That was Platt's and SOL's point, but Pirsig misunderstood it and is now misused grossly. The MOQ began as a SOM-intellectual pattern, but will sooner or later "take off on a purpose of it own" but there are those who want to keep it a SOM-as-academy- as-intellect pattern and it's a pity you joined that badcompany. > > Stop this silly "another level" talk. > With all due respect, you are the one that has suggested another > fucking level! The 'Quality-level', the 'super-rationality' > level...! Go wash your foul moth before returning to Q-kindergarten ;-). > > How many times have I said that the MOQ is no static level but the > > Quality Reality, > Probably too often Bodvar. The MOQ, by the expression of its own > very idea, is a static intellectual pattern of value. Yes, I know only too well that you want to press the MOQ into its own 4th. level. > > the "system" that contains the intellectual level that - by no twist of > > logic - can contain the system it's a sub-set of. Get it? > You have inductively arrived at you SOL interpretation...a purely > intellectual exercise. The Quality idea arrived inductively as well. > LILA is the MOQ program derived from this idea deductively applying > DQ/SQ 'logic'. Yes, it is amazing what happens when you let go of > S/O logic. Again, I know only too well that "thinking and arriving at conclusions" is INTELLECT in your world, i.e. when people of the old arrived at the conclusion that the lights in the sky were gods and goddesses they were "at the intellectual level". And from these premises you can't escape intellect in its SOM shape, not as the 4th. Q-level. You are a good person because you want to discuss the MOQ so your sins are forgiven. (SMILEY) Bodvar Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
