Bo, DMB, Krimel, and All --
A week ago I promised Bodvar I'd chime in "when my instincts tell me someone is talking nonsense."
Here's an example of what I mean: [Krimel to Bo on 15 June]:
.....the world as we know it is one analogy upon another, one ghost upon another and so whole thing is made up of such divisions.
[Bo]:
Where does the MOQ say that "the world as we know it" are analogies. It says that it is Value. If it was analogies a Metaphysics of Analogies (MOA) is required The great metaphysical revolution took place when everything became Quality. Thus the DQ/SQ division is not anything like the S/O split (mind you: the analytical knife always cuts S/O) but an internal arrangement - the static levels are value levels - not like the S and O that are worlds apart.
[DMB]:
... The MOQ makes that cut as the first move in a larger system but that system also says that such intellectual divisions are always secondary to the whole circle.
[Bo]:
Not so glib young man! It's no intellectual division, but THE QUALITY ordering. And this ordering is not secondary to anything. Lest you have - like Pirsig - to postulate another "intellectual" Quality/MOQ division that must be countered by a still higher ..ad infinitum. Come to your senses Dave.
The idea that something called Quality "orders up" the differentiated system that constitutes our reality is a fallacious concept that insults human intelligence. If this were true, there would be no need for experience or the intellect that you prize so highly. David is right that divisions are always secondary to the whole. The primary division is not the universe as experienced but the separation of value-sensibility (awareness) from the "absolute whole" (Essence or DQ). The order, dynamics, and attributes of existence are shaped by individual sensibility and defined (intellectually) by reflecting on one's experience.
Although "analogy" is not the term I would have chosen to describe physical reality, Krimel has a point in that finite objects and events represent our (valuistic) analog of the Absolute Source. This is because we only sense its Value, and what we construct experientially is a differentiated (i.e. relational, dynamic) perspective of ultimate reality in terms of its value.
Pirsig's mistake with the "patterning" concept was to relegate all the human faculties--mind, experience, cognizance, intellect, and the emotions--to a universal Quality, thereby eliminating not only subjects and objects but proprietary awareness as well. This essentially reduces the human being to a useless byproduct of evolution with no agency of its own, hence no discernable reason to exist. However you parse the MoQ levels, the paradigm of Quality as a pre-structured system without epistemological foundation further compounds the author's error, in my opinion.
Sorry, but I couldn't let this comment stand unchallenged. Essentially speaking, Ham Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
