Horse, All. > I doubt there'll be a great amount of disagreement with Dave re: the > mythos ....:
I for my part doubt DMB will come out and agree or disagree with anything. The fight against the SOL and thereby the MOQ has now become THE overwhelming cause and everything disturbing IT is anathema. I can bring reams of text that underpins the SOL interpretation, but you folks just repeat the mantra about "Pirsig have rejected" (which he hasn't, on the contrary his way has been towards the SOL, only lacking the final approval, which he just can't utter, THAT much I understand). > The mythos, although originating for the most part at the > intellectual level is dominant at the social level. Both the Logos and Mythos terms originated after the intellectual level (SOM) had been established in Greece and is intellect calling itself "logos" looking back on the social level which it calls "mythos". That no level knows the Q-context goes without saying. The same goes for the subjective and objective terms which are intellectual to the hilt. "Objectivity" is intellect's view of itself looking back on the past as subjective ignorance and superstition. So in THAT sense everything is "intellectual" as it is now the premise creator in the capacity of SOM. > There are parallels here with, for example, the law. Both are > Intellectual in origin, and dominant at the social level. Criminal Law and "criminology" are surely intellectual, but THE LAW in the sense of social rules and mores like the Mosaic Law (Talmud?) Muslim Koran and the Ten Commandments that Christendom subscribes to, is as old as the social level. No society is possible without laws unwritten or written, it is the social level so to say. > There are aspects of the mythos that are also similar to the law, in > that part of the mythos' purpose is rein in biological (anti-social) > behaviour. Do what the gods want or else you're in for a whole lot > of pain. The mythos has other purposes as well such as explaining > how the world began, why our tribe is justified in stomping on yours > etc. etc. but notice that it is still to do with ideas and the > mythos is still an intellectual tool (ideas about ideas). Also note > that both the mythos and the logos are still centred around memes - > different types of memes but memes nonetheless. See how complicated it turns, particularly when you for good measure adding some pet "meme" idea . And I am accused of mangling the MOQ!!! > At least that's how I see it and unlike you Bo, I'm open to > discussion and, where it makes sense, to modification of my ideas - > I may be right or I may be wrong, but my ego won't blind me to > common sense. I also don't have to mangle the MoQ, resort to calling > Pirsig either a coward or not understanding his own work or talk > complete gibberish in order to put those ideas across. You are open only to a certain degree, but the MOQ is useless until the intellectual level is brought back to its original ZAMM place as SOM. This shines through in so much of LILA, Pirsig probably saw it and hasted to it to add a sentence that left a rabbit hole open. > To be sure, there are areas where I have minor disagreements with > Pirsig - such as the age of intellectual patterns of value - but I > don't think that this either undermines or damages the MoQ in any > way. In what way do you disagree? It's crucial. According to some of his writings intellect sounds = intelligence, something that has been around since deep inside the biological level, but then - inadvertently perhaps - the true intellect forces its way and emerges as in the passage about the social level not having been transcended around Homer's time which points to the Aretê-SOM in ZAMM as the social- intellectual ditto ... i.e SOL. > Anyway, I'm sure that if Dave has a major disagreement with me he'll > say so. If he does we'll have a discussion about it and see where we > go from there. What I'm quite sure about though is that neither of > us will need the SOL to figure out or solve any differences we may > have. Yes, lets hope Dave will have the guts. And I also hope I will receive some explanation from you who showed such glee about the Bin Laden issue. The ever-posting Krimel has clammed shut. BTW I don't think that you Horse as the owner of this site and moderator should take side, your position carries some unduly weight and overawes people. Bodvar. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
