[John] So which choice is better for designating the MoQ? Arlo says artifact.
[Arlo] Of course, to make this accurate you'd have to include that "artifact/process" in Arlo's view are interwoven, the "artifact" is never permanent, and the "process" does not occur without artifacts. Sounds like we are talking DQ and SQ, doesn't it? We are. The Metaphysics of Quality is a stable pattern of values emanating from Pirsig's initial inquires and evolving and informing discourse in an active process of dialogue. The pursuit of Quality, perhaps, is the DQ/process end of this, and it is from this process that we see stable "waves" of value patterns spreading out in its wake. Again, though, these aren't just "left behind" to sit acontextual and "outide" for all time. They are an inseparable part of the evolutionary process. [John] Arlo's problem as I see it, is that even a wave becomes virtually an artifact when conceived or abstracted as a thing. [Arlo] Then you don't read Arlo's posts. [John] My "particular" problem with Arlo's artifactual process, is that any "thing" thusly enclosed by definition, becomes too static. [Arlo] And any process devoid of producing static patterns of value becomes too chaotic to last. "Definitions" are ALWAYS evolutionary, ALWAYS changing, and sometimes the change is slow and sometimes it is long, but "permanence" is just an illusion along the way. The problem I see with YOUR view :-) is that definitions are "whatever you want them to be", can be this, can be that, who cares, hey, we don't want to be "too static". And this is fine if you are simply grooving on Quality. But a "Metaphysics of Quality" is an attempt to create at least a fairly stable pattern of value describing "Quality". If that ain't your thing, that's cool. I'm beginning to think you too are confusing the Metaphysics of Quality with "Quality itself". [John] And since the MoQ explicitly deals with this problem, creatively and in novel format, then it MUST be a process. [Arlo] Well, I'd say "philosophy" is the process here, John, the books and ideas produced by Pirsig are stable patterns of value emanating from this process, part of it, reinforming it, evolving all the time. Heck, you could say "metaphysicing" is the process, and I'd agree. "Thinking", now there's a process. Again, process and artifact are entwined to be dialogically inseparable. But this is the whole DQ/SQ thing in a nutshell. What you are really saying is that the "MOQ" is DQ. And I am saying, to that, that again you are confusing "Quality" (the undefinable) with SQ emanations from its wake (in this case, a high-quality intellectual pattern of value.) At this point I should restate too that I prefer Ant's (I think it was his term) use of "stable patterns of value" over "static". "Static" does imply permanence and "fixedness", where "stable" implies something that can, and does, evolve and change. [John] A harmonious wave of understanding, that it's adherents use to surf unto higher understanding. When you hit the beach, you swim out again. [Arlo] A harmonious wave of understanding (SQ), that it's adherents use to surf unto higher understanding. When you hit the beach, you swim out again (pursing DQ). Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
