Interesting to listen to Ha-Joon Chang. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00tt60h
(Also a religion vs science piece in the same edition of Thinking Allowed.) Ian On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 8:02 AM, Ham Priday <[email protected]> wrote: > Greetings Platt, Marsha, John and All -- > > On Sept 23 at 4:08 PM Platt wrote: > >> SOM axiom: "There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so." >> >> MOQ axiom: Everything is good or bad before thinking at all. >> >> We can see what the MOQ is up against -- Pirsig vs. Shakespeare, >> a far out idea vs.conventional wisdom. >> >> Do the levels get in the way of Pirsig's Copernican revolution? >> >> Does he cater too much to SOM thinking? > > First of all, difference is the nature of existential reality; so there is > no "special difference" that applies to subject-object (SOM) experience. As > for Dynamic Quality being divided into four distinct levels, that is > Pirsig's theory of "causation by preference", and it limits the MoQ to the > evolutionary process of scientific objectivism. > > No offense to RMP, but of course I side with Shakespeare on the question of > values. What is "good" or "bad" is man's judgment > (experiencing/thinking/feeling) based on his value orientation. More > recently, astrophysicist John Wheeler noted: "...what we say about the > universe as a whole depends on the means we use to observe it. In the act > of observing we bring into being something of what we see. Laws of physics > relate to man, the observer, more closely than anyone has thought before. > The universe is not 'out there', somewhere, independent of us. Simply put: > without an observer, there are no laws of physics." > > I think he understates the case. Not only are there no laws of physics, > there is no physical world without an observer. A few days ago, Marsha > quoted a developer of quantum physics as saying: "Observations not only > _disturb_ what is to be measured, they _produce_ it." If, as Pirsig wrote > [in SODV], "the observation creates the reality," and if the sense of > Quality is primary to objective experience, then two conclusions can be > drawn: > 1) An observer (subject) is necessary for objects to exist, and > 2) Quality (Value) is the essence of empirical reality. > > Yes, Platt, this is "SOM thinking". But we MUST think in SOM terms when > dealing with the differentiated world of objects and events. More > importantly, from a metaphysical standpoint, we need to dispense with > difference when postulating Ultimate Reality. The MoQ tries to straddle > both dimensions, using the same terminology to describe "static" and > "dynamic" phenomena, thus failing to break through finitude to an absolute > source. And therein lies much of the confusion regarding patterns, > subjectivity, and intellect. > > The pattern I've noted in recent posts is an attempt to deny both > objectivity and subjectivity and describe the world as if it could be > understood without observation. That's like trying to explain time in a > world where nothing changes. It makes no sense to deny the obvious; this > only complicates the issue and its exposition. > > In a different thread, John pointed out another important concept that has > been slighted in the MoQ: Freedom. If goodness is fixed to Quality in the > universe, we have no alternative but to experience goodness. But we > experience the bad along with the good. That's because Quality is only a > relative measure of goodness--which allows for free choice. > > [John to Andre on 9/23]: >> >> A response to Quality can be good or bad, right? You can harmonize, >> or be out of tune. There is choice. >> >> Good can exist with freedom, because choice is as fundamental as value. >> If there is no choice, there is no good. > > Indeed, as I have argued previously, it is our CHOICE of value, not the > patterns we construct from it, that is fundamental to human existence. > > Essentially speaking, > Ham > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
