John, Maybe dmb can tell us for certain.
Marsha On Oct 7, 2010, at 7:54 AM, MarshaV wrote: > Hi John, > > I think W. James accepts the experience of intuition. I cannot > imagine a Radical Empiricist rejecting intuition. I'm sure the > Wiki info was pertaining to the scientific-SOM-variety of empiricist. > > Marsha > > > > > > On Oct 6, 2010, at 6:50 PM, John Carl wrote: > >> made me look, Marsha. Even worse, made me wiki-look. >> ---On Rationalism vs. Empiricism >> The most prominent distinguishing characteristic between these two >> philosophies is that strict empiricists reject all *a priori* truths, >> decrying any belief in innate knowledge or intuition >> -------- >> >> So to an empiricist, "belief" is the problem. Do they believe this >> strongly? And from what "facts" is it derived? >> >> Hmmm... indeed. I'm with you on that one, Marsha. >> >> John >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 11:00 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> >>> Hello again, >>> >>> Been thinking, normally dangerous, but with a fever doubly so. - I keep >>> thinking about you using the term "rational construct". It seems to me >>> while your Philosophy of Essence and the Metaphysics of Quality are both >>> centered on Value their major difference is reason versus experience. Yes? >>> Rationality versus Empiricism? Do you agree? And having done a search, I >>> see ti is a very old conflict, indeed. Hmmm. >>> >>> >>> Marsha >>> >>> >>> >>> On Oct 2, 2010, at 2:49 AM, MarshaV wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Greetings Ham, >>>> >>>> On Oct 2, 2010, at 2:05 AM, Ham Priday wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Marsha: >>>>>> How I understand conscious awareness is as pure process, >>>>>> 100% immediate experience, and the moment one tries to >>>>>> analyze it, it is gone. All other entities - I, knower, self, >>>>>> individual, me, etc. - are _conceptually constructed_ and >>>>>> have no independent existence. They are a conglomerate >>>>>> ever-changing, impermanent, interdependent, inorganic, >>>>>> biological, social and intellectual static patterns of value. >>>>> >>>>> Ham: >>>>> Marsha, you are attempting to describe the subjective self as if it were >>> an objective entity, which of course is impossible. Yes, "raw" experience >>> is "immediate", but it hardly represents 100% of conscious awareness. There >>> is also the memory function which links self-awareness to the past and makes >>> experience a continuum; the emotive response which is the psycho-biological >>> reaction to what is experienced; and intellection which interprets the data >>> as a rational construct. 'I', 'Knower', 'Individual', and 'Me' are not >>> different entities but simply the labels we use to identify the Self. >>>>> >>>>> That standard definition, which even you must be tired of by now, paints >>> a fuzzy picture of self-awareness as if to demean its credibility--which of >>> course is your intent. I still feel this is somewhat disingenuous on your >>> part. Certainly we cannot objectivize, quantify, measure, or localize >>> conscious awareness as we can, say, a rock or a tree. Conversely, however, >>> what would the rock or tree be if there was no awareness of it? As Pirsig >>> insisted, experience is primary; and since experience is known only to >>> awareness, all we really know about objective existence is that it is >>> patterned from sensible value. >>>> >>>> Marsha: >>>> I am putting aside the experience of raw data (unpatterned experience) >>> and talking about conscious awareness as in mindfulness. Mindfulness is a >>> technique easily learned and strengthened through practice. It's the >>> experience of being here-now without constructing an associated past or >>> future. In the mindfulness experience there is no building a subjective >>> self for it is all _process_, all immediate experience. Pattern recognition >>> seems limited to the function of the sense organ. It is _habit_ that >>> associates these immediate experiences with an individual, independent self, >>> or its various labels, rather than understanding that it is a flow of >>> experiences. _Habit_ that when conscious awareness (mindfulness) stops then >>> the making of meaning begins (internal story-telling). It is the conceptual >>> constructing, making of meaning, that creates the independent self. It is >>> an after-experience add-on. I am suggesting that in mindfulness it is >>> obvious that experiences comes fi >>> rst, and that associating now-experiences to a 'self' is a secondary >>> habit. Experience is primary! Self-building is secondary. >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks Ham, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Marsha >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ___ >>>> >>>> >>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>> Archives: >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>> >>> >>> >>> ___ >>> >>> >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > ___ > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
