Hi guys, Following in , on the totality of this interaction,have to say,this is shifting to very good qualitystuff. very good material, intense and honestly. Adrie
2010/10/19 Dan Glover <[email protected]> > Hello everyone > > On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 10:47 PM, John Carl <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hello Dan. > > > > Well. (deep breath) Here goes. > > > >> Explaining yourself poorly, is not "Quality in thought and expression" > >> dan. > >> > Are you admitting to some clowning of your own? > >> > >> Dan: > >> Well, you are not getting what I am saying so I am being polite by > >> pointing the fault at myself. > >> > >> > > Yes! Exactly! That's what clowning is, dan. And it actually can be > very > > helpful, at times. The zen lunatics of Japan were famous for it, but > that's > > another story for another time. > > Dan: > Clowning around is being polite? So please and thank you are forms of > clowning around. I don't see it that way but if you say so... > > > > > > >> > >> Dan: > >> I don't know what you mean here. What story? Your life story? Your > >> problems and tribulations? Like I said, everyone has problems. I have > >> mine too. But I don't think it is all that wise to trot them out in > >> front of everyone. > >> > > > > > > "airing one's dirty laundry", so to speak. All the rage on reality tv, > and > > such, I hear. I understand completely. There has to be a point. There > has > > to be some sort of meaning in it all, or it's just babble on the wind. I > > get that. > > > > Let me just say, that there seems to be to me. The fact that I haven't > been > > able to fully communicate it to you, is probably my fault (see above > remark > > on "clowning") but I promise I will try harder. > > > > I think part of the problem is my idealistic reality conflicts with > other's > > empirical facts. I should be more sensitive, I suppose, but part of my > > solution to this conundrum, is simply positing the most basic and humble > of > > lives, mine for instance, threadbare, skinning along on the very knife > edge > > of existence, and yet happy, contented and continuing onward. Getting > > somewhere, because of the MoQ. Because of a basic attitude about > Quality. > > > > Quality is something more than mere surface appearance. > > > > Now, you can certainly take issue with my stance, my presentation, my > > communication, my participation, my elucidation or my pronounciation... > all > > are offered up for critique and analysis. such are the rules of this > game. > > > > > > But the issue of "reverence", bugs me for some reason. It just doesn't > make > > sense to me at all, dan. And it sorta makes me worry about you, a bit. > > Dan: > Of course it doesn't make sense. That is what I have been saying all > along. Why would you worry about me? You don't know me. Am I being > irrational somehow? As far as I can see, what I am saying is entirely > consistent with what many others have said, including the quotes I > offered from The Guidebook to ZMM. > > > > > > >> Dan: > >> How about an intelligent conversation? > >> > >> > > well... you either judge me incapable of that, and walk away, or you go > > ahead and engage me in one. Intelligent conversation takes two people, > you > > know. Two people - each listening to the other and responding to the > points > > that are made. > > > > I mean, it's seems basically to me that's what we are doing, here, now. > But > > mebbe you got higher standards for "intelligent". You want I should look > up > > some big words for us to ponder? > > Dan: > You know. > > > > > > > > >> Dan: > >> Years ago there was a fellow here who went by the name of Roger > >> Parker... a wonderful guy. We shared many discussions here and on Doug > >> Renselle's Quantonics site. Anyway, he likened our choice set in life > >> to a chess game. I stated that in my experience, there are many > >> opening moves in chess that can be made, but only a select few that > >> will allow a player a chance at winning... only the best moves. Life > >> is like that too. Sure, there are a vast number of thoughts involved > >> in every decision, but there are only a select few that are good > >> thoughts. > >> > >> If we are irrational beings, we won't survive long. How could we? > >> > >> > > I like chess. I get to play with my father-in-law, once a week, and he > > loves to play as much as me, and we're evenly matched, so that's fun. > But > > I'm not real good at thinking ahead in chess. I get lost quick, in all > the > > potential moves and countermoves. So instead of trying to think way > ahead > > of all the possible moves, I usually just focus on the move right in > front > > of me. Where's the best place to go now. What's the immediate situation > > look like. > > > > There are only a select, few, that are good moves. > > > > > >> > I may clown around as my style, dan, but I can be quite serious about > >> some > >> > things. Loyalty is one of those things. I respect yours. > >> > >> Dan: > >> Then perhaps you understand when you insult people like Robert Pirsig > >> that I am going to kick up a fuss about it. > > > > > > > > Now yer gonna have to back that one up, big boy. Insult? Where did I > ever > > insult Robert Pirsig? Unless you mean insult in some weird "didn't kiss > > the carpet enough for my satisfaction" sorta way, then I have NO idea > what > > you're talking about with your "insult". > > > > Something in your head, not mind. > > Dan: > "Holy Bob" comes to mind. And many of your posts seem to denigrate > what he has to say without understanding what it is he is saying. Now, > you may holler that you understand and that you are not being > insulting, but if someone were talking about me like that, I would > consider it insulting and have nothing to do with them. Maybe you > think it's funny and entertaining. Fine. But I am neither amused nor > entertained by such antics. > > > > > > > > >> > Well I'll grant you are more knowing than I on the subject, having > spent > >> > those years and all. But in my opinion, all caring is the same and > life > >> > depends on each and every part of that caring, each and every moment > of > >> > every day. > >> > >> Dan: > >> But it's not! Any yahoo can claim that they care and they are probably > >> right. But there are deeper ways of caring... ways that can't be > >> explained or written about. You have to feel it deep down. No one can > >> tell you what to feel. No one can say the feeling is right or wrong. > >> You just know! > >> > >> > > That's true. I do know. No one can say I have insulted Robert Pirsig in > my > > heart, because only I know my heart and I know it is not there. > > > > And any yahoo can claim that "i care more than you" and it seems like > that > > because they make such a big noisy fuss. but one has to ask, is their > big > > noisy fuss along the lines of the fuss the catholics made in the > > reformation. Nobody makes a fuss that the sun is going to rise tomorrow. > > People make a fuss over things that are in doubt. Who's actually being > > insulting then? > > Dan: > Again, there are different ways of caring that have nothing to do with > caring more. That isn't in question. Re-read the quote from ZMM about > climbing the mountain. Nowhere does he say that the pilgrims who > climbed the mountain cared more than Phaedrus. You are missing > something, John, and perhaps that is what's bothering you. > > > > > > >> Dan: > >> No I don't like the way you've been doing it. You care intellectually, > >> I am sure of that. But John, there are other methods of climbing that > >> do not involve intellect and reason. And that doesn't mean being > >> unreasonable either. > >> > >> > > I don't think it's possible to "care intellectually", dan. We care, > then > > intellectualize. So I can't see how you can be so sure of anything in > me, > > that i don't even think is possible. > > Dan: > So you never think about caring? Is that what you're saying? If not, > then what exactly are you saying? How do you care about anything if > you don't think about it? And I am not sure about you... I can only go > by the words you share. > > > > > And you may be right, about the other ways of climbing. I was raised in > a > > belief system that said reason was what leads us astray. They promoted > the > > idea of faith, but I think I'd rather go with reason. For if faith is > faith > > in anything real, it should first be certainly reasonable, don't you > think? > > Dan: > Faith is the belief in that which isn't real. There is no reason to > have faith in something that is real, is there? > > > > > > > The sun rises every day. > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > It rises in the Eastern way. It sets in the west. > >> > >> Dan: > >> Exactly. And we in the West expect that. Our whole lives revolve > >> around expectations. We rarely experience a moment of true and utter > >> awe at the mystery that is life. That is what was missing when > >> Phaedrus failed to complete the pilgrimage. He expected to climb a > >> mountain. But that wasn't what it was all about. > >> > >> > > Well I hate to be so disagreeable, but I guess I gotta. I don't see > how > > anybody who is a parent can help but be struck constantly with awe at the > > mystery of life. Happens to me about three times a week, actually. > > Dan: > Sure. But again, that isn't what I am saying. > > > > > Phaedrus succeeded in the true pilgrimage, which isn't about finding the > top > > of a mountain, it's about finding yourself. > > > > That's what its all about. > > Dan: > It is the analogy I am pointing to, not the actual climbing. But > perhaps we will get there. > > Thank you, > > Dan > > > > > Hokey pokey John > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > -- parser Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
