Let's stick to the first point.
One. You're only confused cos you choose to be. A pendant interested
in definitions of words to argue about, rather than anything
productive. You are being SOMist.
Two. I only used the word creation in that second definition cos you
asked me to point out the distinction. I'm gonna have to go back to
using scare quotes. I didn't use that word originally. Evolution and
creation are distinct. The former is legitimately scientific, the
latter isn't.
Let's start there. And you can read what I posted, from the top.
Ian
Sent from my iPhone
On 25 Oct 2010, at 16:03, Steven Peterson <[email protected]>
wrote:
Hi Ian,
[IG]
Creation - Conjuring something out of nothing.
Evolution - Creation of interesting things in the universe.
(How hard can that be ?)
Steve:
I'm still confused. I asked you to explain the distinction bewteen
evolution and creation and you just defined evolution as creation.
Ian:
Science has nothing to do with creation (of something from
nothing).
Steve:
What makes you think so?
[IG] Huh. That ball is in your court if you disagree.
Give me any possible plausible suggestion it could be otherwise.
Steve:
It's not that I agree or disagree yet. I'm still trying to figure out
what you mean.
Ian:
(Briefly - science explains things in terms of physical processes,
demonstrable empirically from before and after situations, causes and
effects, events - and controlled events, like experiments.
Steve:
If creation is "before there was nothing and now there is something"
then that is a before and after situation. I don't see why it can't in
principle be studied. It may be true that we haven't found a way to
say anything about that situation, but I don't see what it is
impossible for science in principle to study it.
Ian:
Those
processes assume things like time and physical laws ... even if
assuming them is part of the hypothesis being tested ... what
processes work on no-thing and no-time, before existence and time ?
Steve:
As I understand you, you've defined this very process as creation.
Ian:
Evolution of things (big bangs, galaxies and people) since creation
need have nothing to do with any god, since in principle it is
amenable to science.
Steve:
Here you just said that creation is in principle amenable to science.
Ian:
Cosmogeny (metaphyisical or theological) has nothing to do with
science ever, not even in principle.
Steve:
What makes you think that science has nothing to do with
cosmogeny even in principle? What sort of knowledge is possible that
science can't even in principle try to know?
[IG] Cosmogeny, as I said. (How hard can it be ;-)
Steve:
That's not an answer. You've just put a label to my question. What
sort of knowledge claims would qualify as cosmogeny? I suspect that
you've defined knowledge in cosmogeny as an empty set.
Ian:
As I say - I make the bold (and very simple) assertion - so I ask you
to show any flaw in what I say. If you can suggest any remotely
possible way science can explain something from nothing, I'd really
like to hear it (don't tell me people disagree - that's not news -
most of the SOMist world does - that's the point). Point me to a
theory, show me an equation, a paper, anything ... even your own
argument if you prefer it (but this is not a new subject).
Steve:
But what more needs to be said about something from nothing? What sort
of knowledge claims are possible about the situation that science can
never say anything about? If we are talking about cosmogeny, what is
it we are talking about? You'll say "something from nothing" as though
that is an answer, bit what sorts of knowledge claims could fit under
the heading "something from nothing?"
I suspect what you are doing is saying that science can never help us
know something about which there is nothing to know. But we already
knew that.
Best,
Steve
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