dmb said:
This theory claims that religion caters to those who have been deprived of
certain emotional and psychological needs. ...I don't think the deprivation
theory of religion explains everything but it pretty well describes the
psychological motives of many, if not most, religious people.
John replied:
I agree dave. I'd add the caveat, however, that it also describes the
experience of a vast number of people. Who doesn't need love, acceptance,
certainty and a sense of meaning or purpose in their lives? Point out those
people to me, so I have an idea of your "control" group, anyway.
dmb says:
You're not getting the point. Let me give it to you in plain talk: Needy people
can't think straight. True believers are not flexible thinkers. How is this
simple and obvious point even debatable?
Yes, of course, people need love and acceptance. Nobody thinks otherwise. The
issue is whether or not it's appropriate to adopt philosophical positions in
order to get love and acceptance. Those needs are supposed to be supplied by
your friends, family and community. Can you CREATE meaning and purpose in your
life or are you going to rely on tradition to tell you what your "purpose" is?
Are you going to practice the art of living or are you going to paint by
numbers? If you're willing to swallow the old ready-made answers because of the
way they meet your basic emotional needs, then you're not really prepared to
think freely. See, it's called the "deprivation theory" because we are talking
about the thought style of people who have been deprived of these essential
human needs. But philosophy is not supposed to meet these needs. These needs
are supposed to be supplied by the people in your life, not a belief system.
Philosophy is not your mommy and this discussion group is not
here to serve your emotional needs. That's all I'm saying. Truth isn't about
being loved or accepted, you know? It's about intellectual excellence, not
social acceptance.
dmb said:
...the radical empiricist insists that we ought not go beyond the experience to
assert supernatural entities as the cause of such experience.
John replied:
I'd say Absolute Idealism agrees there.
dmb says:
Absolute Idealism is theism. The Absolute is its non-anthropomorphic God.
Pirsig's description of the MOQ as atheistic and anti-theistic was directed at
that particular version of God. I've tried to explain this several times
already but you cannot or will not hear it. In fact, you just recently asked
about the anti-theism right AFTER I answered it. That just kills me. And then
you wonder why I'm not too interested in discussing it with you.
John said:
... Some men value truth, dave. And there's clearly an impelling force to
hearing truth, even when it rocks your world, attacks your views and changes
your agenda. To those who pursue this ring of truth, pretty soon worlds, views
and agendas don't mean nearly so much as this ring of truth. These then, are
philosophers. And them I salute, everywhere.
dmb says:
That's right. And I am saying that some people can not be philosophers and can
not pursue truth IF their basic human needs have NOT been fulfilled. Famously,
people who have been deprived of these needs will look for love in all the
wrong places. Strip joints, show business and the churches are dominated these
people. This is a relatively solid and uncontroversial truth in developmental
psychology. We have a hierarchy of needs (Maslow) that lines up pretty well
with the MOQ's levels. But common sense also tells us that seeking social
acceptance is very different from seeking intellectual acceptance. Or at least
it should, John. But apparently you've got some fairly serious self-esteem
issues you're trying to work that out rather than actually do any real
philosophizing. It's always about John and never about the MOQ. You are simply
too self-absorbed and too defensive to play this little game we call
metaphysics.
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