On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 7:35 AM, John Carl <[email protected]> wrote: > Yo Dan, > > Dan: >> We're approaching this from a Western prospective, of course. From my >> (admittedly limited) understanding, the original purpose of zen koans >> was to stop the monkeys chasing each other through the mind, that >> infernal internal discourse that never ever shuts up. In other words, >> there is no point in answering the question. It was never meant to be >> answered. >> > > John: > > I disagree. A koan is that which must be answered, but can only be answered > by transcending the subject/object paradigm, so it's a question designed to > lift us out of our normal paradigm, according to my best understanding. > > Admittedly, as something of an outsider, but I have quite a bit of reading - > mostly A. Watts - to back up my assertion.
Dan: Well, you got me there... I have no reading to back up my assertion. I never read about zen, or write about it for that matter. I have seen for myself, though... for what it's worth. > > > >> >> > >> > John: "Dynamic awareness" must be an awareness of some sort of pattern >> or >> > concept, so I don't see how there can be any "emergence" from a >> pre-existing >> > awareness when it is exactly that awareness which defines patterns (or >> > concepts) >> >> Dan: >> Dynamic awareness is neither this nor that. Of course you cannot see >> it. It comes as a complete surprise. >> >> >> >> Dan: >> Experience is synonymous with Dynamic Quality. The defining of >> experience is synonymous with static quality. >> >> > > John: > > Well, I wonder about this, I really do. For a great deal of my experience > is, at times, completely non-dynamic. So how could DQ be synonomous with > such a static state of being? Dan: By definition, of course. You're defining experience right now. And you take that for experience. Dynamic Quality is always here but we cover it up, cloth it in thought, define it. And when someone comes along and tells us there's more, we wonder about it. We really do. > > > >> >> Dan: >> There is no patterning aspect to Dynamic Quality. Once that happens, >> it is gone. >> >> > John: > > By "patterning" I mean what Pirsig analogized by the leading edge of the > train. I guess, in a very pedantic way we could say that whenever you > mention the term "dynamic quality" you've killed it, but we do talk about > "that which patterns" and part of the utility of this metaphysical stance is > the ability to discuss the ineffable. Dan: Perhaps, it is the difference between experience and reading about experience. Don't get me wrong... I am a big reader. Comes a time though when reading doesn't do it. It is hard climbing mountains while lugging a library along. Or so I've found... > > > >> > John: >> > >> > Well we're on the same page there too, Dan. Except that I am a >> > philosopher. A very simplistic and neophyte philosopher, but >> nevertheless >> > on a journey to explore "philos" and "sophia" - the wisdom of love. >> >> Dan: >> >> Oddly, I'm more a romantic. For philosophy is not wisdom of love... it >> is love of wisdom. Otherwise, we really would be on the same page. >> >> > John: > > Philosophy is usually construed as you say, but I like upending the > formulation of philo-sophia to remind us that the reasons for caring are > ultimately rational. It is wise, to love. Dan: How so? The heart desires love. But it isn't rational. > > > >> > John: >> > >> > You found a tree in your experience, but that experience did not include >> the >> > falling of the tree, just the evidence of a tree on the ground. Usually >> > trees get on the ground by falling, but while it's improbable it is >> > conceivable that the tree was gently laid upon the ground by logging >> > helicopters. What is the sound of a tree being laid on the ground by >> > helicopters? >> >> Dan: >> >> Context, John... it's all about context. They don't log here. The >> ground itself was indented by the fall. Other trees had been broken >> when this one fell. The branches of this tree were embedded deeply in >> the soil. And finally, the enormous root ball was still attached, >> ripped right out of the ground. We of course searched the hole for >> arrowheads and even found a couple broken ones. >> >> All that is beside the point though... I merely offered it as a >> humorous anecdote. I don't know if it made a noise when it fell. But >> if it didn't, there's never been a noise made in the history of the >> world. >> >> > John: > > Well I'm sure you're right, but at the same time I do like to postulate the > thought experiments that illustrate the truths found in extreme skepticism. Dan: Sure, thought experiments are fine as long as they don't drift into the nonsensical. > > > >> >John: >> > Thanks for the thought-experiments and happy Eclipsed solstice to you >> also, >> >> Dan: >> What thought experiments? >> >> > Mine! Dan: I'm sorry John. I think it is nonsense, not thought experiements at all. Like I said, you're missing the whole point of the hot stove analogy, which is a shame. But you're welcome anyway. Dan Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
