Hello everyone On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 3:58 PM, Ham Priday <[email protected]> wrote: > Greetings, Dan (Marsha quoted) -- > > > [Marsha, previously]: >> >> Desires are just a way to ward off one's only certainty: death. >> Desires project existence into the future so one does not have to >> deal with one's fear of death. >> >> Except for the wish to become enlightened, the Buddha has said >> that desire is the source of all suffering. I suppose I needed to >> work this out for myself, because desire has culturally been labeled good. > > [Ham]: >> >> As a Quality devotee, how can you dismiss what drives us all toward >> "betterness"? >> >> Is there anything you do, short of an obligatory chore, that is not >> motivated by desire? Wanting to paint, listening to music, seeking wisdom, >> falling in love, improving your healh, increasing your wealth, satisfying >> your hunger, caring for your children, longing for peace -- are these not >> all examples of your desiring? > > [DMB]: >> >> What we like gets us out of bed each morning and it gets us off >> hot stoves. It's the continuing stimulus that creates the world in >> which we live. > >> Dan comments: >> I didn't comment on dmb's post as I agree with it and saw no need >> to improve upon it. But Ham, I think you are being far too simplistic >> in saying desire is a high Quality event. >> >> Some desires do indeed lead to suffering... for example: the desire >> for more, more, more, infecting the corporate structure and wrecking >> havoc on the world economy over the last few years... the "keeping up >> with the Jones," so to speak. >> >> I think it is a mistake to equate desire with value and Quality as >> value and Quality exist without the desire to possess them. This, >> perhaps, is what Marsha is pointing to? > > [Marsha adds]: >> >> There is an abundance of material to support the fact that >> longing/desiring/ >> craving is the source of suffering. For me desire is all about illusion, >> it is not realizing that the object of my desire is a projection, a >> pattern, >> a conceptual construct that does not exist out there somewhere separate. >> Desire creates separation, builds ego or I-ness; it is dualistic through >> and >> through. - I paint when I prefer to paint above all other activities.
>Ham: > The object of your desire may be an "illusion", but does knowing this stifle > the desire? The point is that we desire what we do not have, as Socrates > said. Sartre said "we desire the being of the other for ourselves." > Preference is simply your desired "choice" to paint. I see nothing wrong > with "building the ego"; it is no more sinister than building > self-confidence, which is what we teach our children. > > I think I may have stumbled unknowingly upon MoQ's Waterloo. Pirsig defies > epistemology by claiming that Quality exists independently of man. This > leads his followers to believe that it is unrelated to desire, making desire > a greedy, infectious state of mind. Why else would Dan associate desire > with only selfish goals and motives? Hi Ham Thank you for allowing me to set the record straight here. First of all, RMP does not claim Quality exists independent of man. Quality is experience. How can experince be independent of the experiencer? So no, his "followers" do not believe Quality is unrelated to desire. As I wrote Marsha, in the MOQ desire can be seen as biologically, socially, and intellectually driven. And if you've read my posts at all, you must realize I do not associate desire with only selfish goals and motivations. Of course you probably have no real reason to read my posts, unless they're addressed to you... Ham: The concept of individual liberty and > social morality is derived from the desire of human beings to better their > collective situation, not "wreck" it. The development of science and > medicine was motivated by desire for the knowledge to alleviate suffering, > not "cause" it. Dan: Agree. >Ham: > Of course unbridled desire can lead to gluttony and aggrandisement. Too > much candy can cause a stomach ache. Too much power can breed tryanny. But > must it be sinful to "want" something? How can human civilization progress > without it? Besides, human beings have the rational capacity to temper > excess craving. Dan: Again, I agree with you here, though with the stipulation that most human beings haven't the rational capacity to temper excess craving. Hundreds of thousands of people die every year from smoking cigarettes and drinking alcohol to excess. Obesity is rampant in developed and even developing countries. Social and intellectual patterns have evolved to curb excess biological cravings but many people suffer the effects anyway. >Ham: > And, no, Dan; I do not believe for a moment that "Value and Quality exist > without the desire to possess them." To value something is to desire it. If > Value could not inspire desire, we would have no way to realize it. And if > man lacked the capacity to discriminate between good and poor quality, or to > choose what is of value, he would be reduced to robotic status. Dan: Have you ever been to an art museum and witnessed some unbelievably incredible work of art? Did you feel the need to possess it; did the desire arise to make it yours? Or did you simply feel a sense of awe? And if you felt that sense of awe, wasn't that value? If you understand what I am saying, then you see that Quality and desire are not necessarily linked in any way, Ham. Ham: I'm sorry > if this epistemology conflicts with the Quality thesis; but it is a > common-sense view that merits some serious reckoning by the Pirsigians. Dan: Well, as far as the Quality thesis goes, I don't speak for others, only myself. But I do have some little grounding in the MOQ, so I appreciate the opportunity to expound on it. Again, thank you for your thoughts, and I look forward to your response. Dan Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
