Hello everyone On Sun, Sep 25, 2011 at 11:21 AM, John Carl <[email protected]> wrote: > There is one unfinished dialogue, that I always had hoped to see fleshed out > a bit here on this discuss, and thats a dialogue that went on and on in > Phaedrus's head, when asked what he thought about cookery and how it related > to pandering. It must of have been a real show-stopper of a dialogue, > because it's back and forth drove the guy out of the classroom, out of > academia and for a short period, into the nut house. And yet didn't stop > there! On and on that dialogue went, getting ZAMM out and published and > producing Lila. Because it's a very deep issue, that's why. > > >> Dan said: >> >> >> ...And if I did write to please the reader (ideal or otherwise) I am quite > sure my writings wouldn't be from the heart. They would be contrived. My > words wouldn't be my own. They would belong to someone else... someone I was > trying to imitate... someone I was trying to please. >> >> >> dmb says: >> Well, yea. That would just be pandering. The ideal reader I'm talking > about is NOT designed to help one produce contrived imitations. Quite the > opposite. I think the idea is supposed to give the writer a frame of mind > that allows him to write the kind of thing that he would most like to read > himself. It's a device that sort of gives you "permission" to write exactly > what you think is good, to write the book that you'd want to read. > > > > John: I think that both dan and dmb are wrong. I think Dan fools himself > into believing that underneath it all, he's got words that are "his own". I > don't believe there are any such words. I don't think there is any such > "my" that can own. All words are signs and predicated upon a sender and a > receiver. There is no other way words can even exist. If I type away here > in my own personal language, then I'm not typing words, I'm not writing, I'm > typing gibberish. I'm typing. "That isn't writing, it's typing" said > Capote to Kerouac - an interesting comment because although wrong, it did > illustrate that there is a difference. > > But this goes deeper than the mere fact that all language is shared. > Writing is communication. The idea of "ideal reader" is always there in > every writer's mind, even if the ideal reader is just himself. For this > "himself" is constructed out of the plethora of inputs and influences in the > writer's past, his dreams and aspirations of what he wants to be and do, is > in fact, that most significant other which drives the process of writing and > communicating ideas.
Hi John Thank you for taking the time to write. You make some good points. I took it for granted that everyone (here) knows that language is shared value even though I didn't say as much. No words are our own yet we take them and make them our own... that is the nature of the artist. You could say the same thing about a painter... the paints aren't theirs... the canvas isn't theirs... even the portrait they paint isn't theirs. But they make it their own by putting their own spin on it, giving it their own interpretation through the lenses of their own personal experience. I suggest we consider that writing can be more than communication when it comes to art, for art goes beyond social and intellectual value into the realm of Dynamic expression. Perhaps I am wrong. But to me, great writing doesn't just communicate... it takes me away into another world. It lifts my spirits and dashes my hopes. Great writing makes me believe in magic. And yes, it is just communication but there is something to language that goes beyond communication. To me, it denigrates the artist to say they are merely seeking to communicate with others. It brings them down to where the non-artists are more comfortable. By saying writing is communication we (perhaps unwittingly) set ourselves in a competition against others when art isn't a competition at all. Art is nourishing oneself upon wisdom. Whether (or not) that results in communication is completely beside the point of art. But as I said, perhaps I'm wrong... and the quality of art isn't for everyone... >John: > So what's wrong then, with "pandering"? Isn't that just a an academically > pejorative epithet intended to keep good little boys and girls silent in > their nice neat rows? Originally I guess, the word meant prostitution. > Old Plato's point being then that good cooks are whores? Dan: There is nothing "wrong" with pandering, I suppose, if that is your thing: pan·der [pan-der] Show IPA noun Also, pan·der·er. 1. a person who furnishes clients for a prostitute or supplies persons for illicit sexual intercourse; procurer; pimp. 2. a person who caters to or profits from the weaknesses or vices of others. 3. a go-between in amorous intrigues. verb (used without object) 4. to act as a pander; cater basely: to pander to the vile tastes of vulgar persons. I'm guessing that Plato's vision of pandering had more to do with cooks being pimps rather than whores. But more, his point seemed to home in on fine cooking, which seems to correlate with the notion in LILA of the Victorian values in finery vs. the values of plains-spoken Indians. One might even contrast the Buddhist notion of "just doing" vs. the Western notion of a life well lived by acquiring the most toys before a person dies. >John: > Maybe. For some reason, people just love my barbecue. Especially my > chicken. And it is good, but there's no magic ingredient or secret I can > think of. I just throw the meat on the heat and take it off when I think > its done. I marinate first, true, but usually with whatever comes to hand, > nothing special. I do insist on actual charcoal. I think chicken cooked > over a propane flame is an abomination. Real coals convey a smokey > sweetness as they slowly turn to ash. And "slowly" is a key term. It takes > at least an hour and half to get done, and for real flavor, you should let > it slowly smoke into perfection for about 2 1/2. Which takes time and > planning, I admit, but it's not that difficult to just wait for something to > be done. It's not like it takes all that much skill to rest. But I notice > that it is hard for some people. > > Then, there are the accoutrement. Roasted potatoes are a must. Put them > right in the coals, wrapped in foil, turning them at 20 minutes and they > come out moister and tastier than any other way of cooking them. And I like > to plop sweet corn, in its natural wrappings, right down next to the chicken > and let it steam in its own leaves and get slightly browned on at least two > sides. the sugars and starches carmelizing nicely. And usually, I also > have a couple of stuffed onions in there, where you hollow out an onion with > a knife and then mix the onion that you cut out of the middle with ground > beef and sage and garlic, and then wrap it up in foil and add it in with the > potatoes, and when its all done, you cut open the onion on top of the baked > potato and they complement each other very well. > > That's the meal I fixed for some friends I made here, a widow and her > brother who were living in the house where I remodeled their basement, and > their other brother and his wife. Very nice people who'd invited us to the > Medora Musical (Marsha: you would have loved it! Such singing! Such > dancing!) and I wanted to offer them a thank you meal. They raved about it > and were so grateful and it didn't take that much effort really, but like > anything done well, it was appreciated. > > Some call it pandering, some call it cookery. I call it life. Dan: It sounds like we're much on the same page, John. I've always said that good cooking is nothing more than having the time. Myself, I make stews and soups during the winter. It always takes at least six hours to make a good soup. Everyone I share it with raves about it and asks for my recipe. But I have no recipe. I buy a cheap piece of meat, throw it in a pot with a bunch of vegetables usually whatever is handy add some fresh herbs (bottled store-bought herbs should be banned) and cook until done... no time limit but I know when it is ready. Thank you, Dan Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
