Hi Dan, >> David H: >> Yes. So taking it back to the rta analogy.. >> >> "The explanation for this contradiction is the belief that you don't >> free yourself from static patterns by fighting them with other >> contrary static patterns, that is called bad Karma chasing its tail. >> You free yourself from static patterns by putting them to sleep. That >> is you master them with such proficiency, that they become an >> unconscious part of your nature. You get so used to them you >> completely forget them and they are gone. There at the center of the >> most monotonous boredom of static ritualistic patterns, the dynamic >> freedom is found." > > Dan: > I think Phaedrus is discussing Buddhist rituals here in regard to > meditation, not artistic endeavors such as music, painting, writing, > motorcycle maintenance, etc. Note the next paragraph: > > "Phaedrus saw nothing wrong with this ritualistic religion as long as > the rituals are seen as merely a static portrayal of Dynamic Quality, > a sign-post which allows socially pattern-dominated people to see > Dynamic Quality. The danger has always been that the rituals, the > static patterns, are mistaken for what they merely represent and are > allowed to destroy the Dynamic Quality they were originally intended > to preserve." > > Dan comments: > Notice he says 'ritualistic religion' here. He seems to be saying that > these rituals break down social barriers and allow people to glimpse > Dynamic Quality. I don't see this as being the same as using intellect > to better develop skill sets and thereby become better artists.
I agree with you that Pirsig argues rta is for 'socially patterned-dominated people to see Dynamic Quality'. However, I don't think this ritualistic repetition applies only in a social setting.. Repetition IMHO is necessary to 'master' anything. Intellectually, for instance, a Koan or any question you might ask is something which we naturally go over and over again in our heads - thinking about the question trying to find an answer to it which produces the most harmony and peace of mind. As you probably already know - Lila is one such Koan - It asks "Does Lila have quality?" over and over again until Pirsig was satisfied he had a solution which answered the question with sufficient clarity. While, as Zen Buddhism claims, we don't need to go to school to experience Dynamic Quality, it does take training and sacrifice to get good at something and experience Dynamic Quality on a regular basis... >> Dave H: >> In other words, he couldn't just start playing other patterns which he >> hadn't mastered. He could only play those patterns which he had. So >> long as he did that the dynamic freedom was found. > > Dan: > > I don't think that's quite what he's saying... otherwise he'd just > play the same song. No, the artistic freedom he talks about finds its > strength in reference to original form but is something new and > unique. Yeah. But where does that new form come from? I think it's only from mastering of the old form that the new, better, form can appear. The old forms are still there as Bill Evans claims - they're just made better as a result of mastering the old forms to the point where he 'mastered them with such proficiency, that they become an unconscious part of his nature. He got so used to them that he completely forgot them and they were gone. There in the most monotonous boredom the Dynamic Quality could be found.' And as DQ is the source of all new things, new patterns were created. > > Thank you, > > Dan Thank-you Dan, I really like disagreement. It helps to bring out our philosophical distinctions. Kind of the point of this discussion group I suppose... -David. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
