OK Mark, let's try again.
You keep harping on about discussing Quality so please explain to me
(and everyone else), in a logical and rational way, how we discuss Quality.
According to Pirsig, Quality has two components - Static and Dynamic (SQ
and DQ) - and, as Arlo and DMB and many others have pointed out, DQ is
not really up for discussion. So that leaves SQ.
And yet you seem to think that SQ is not a subject worthy of discussion!
So if we can't discuss one aspect of Quality (DQ) and you don't want to
discuss the other aspect (SQ) then what exactly is it that you want to
discuss?
Let me know as I'm curious to find out!
Horse
On 28/11/2012 00:25, 118 wrote:
Hi,
I thought I would join this conversation since I assume it is open to the
public. Before you recoil in terror, just listen to what I have to say. There
is nothing illogical in what I write. I am interested in MoQ, not in some
hate-fest.
On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 6:53 AM, ARLO JAMES BENSINGER JR <[email protected]>
wrote:
[Horse]
A good assessment Arlo. Perhaps it's about time that the members of this
list take back the initiative to express what it is that Pirsig is saying.
[Arlo]
Agree. I've been somewhat preoccupied with other matters and, to be honest,
my gumption level for dealing with that sort of trolling nonsense had
pretty much been completed depleted. FWIW, I've been continuing to scan
Northrop, albeit at a slower pace, but should be able to provide a digital
copy of The Meeting of East and West to interested scholars in the near
future. What would be nice is a collected effort to 'tag' the text to
relevant or associated points made in Pirsig's writings.
Mark:
Thanks! I appreciate your effort.
[Horse]
It does need a concerted effort though - DMB is doing a good job countering
the arguments of certain members but cannot do it on his own.
Mark:
Funny, I do not see any countering of my arguments except through the
pasting of verse. I have dealt with Christians who aren’t as bad.
[Arlo]
The trouble is (as I think even DMB himself commented) DMB is trying to use
an intellectual argument against an anti-intellectual position. The trolls
are not interested in reason, or proof, or logic, or agreement with Pirsig,
or anything of the sort. They are interested only in attacking the great
evil of academia and rationality. Mark sees his incoherence not as a
weakness, but as PROOF that he is operating "on a level above" DMB. The
very fact that DMB makes citations to Pirsig is PROOF to Mark that his
uncited, unsupported ramblings about Pirsig are superior. Marsha isn't
interested in anything Pirsig says that contradicts the old SOLAQI
nonsense, she is here beat on intellect-as-SOM and academics as SOM-stuck
preachers.
Mark:
I am not sure what you mean by PROOF, Arlo, all I read are emotional
rantings. What proof do you speak of? Please explain in a rational manner.
Or is this simply another typical complaint cluster?
My arguments are purely rational and logical. MoQ is a metaphysics of
Quality. Therefore the subject matter of such metaphysics is Quality. DMB
states that Quality cannot be discussed. I am not sure what metaphysics he
is therefore discussing.
I have shown dmb that the quotes he presents should not be interpreted in
the way he does. He has assigned Quality to a simplistic model, and then
goes on to make pronouncements of society and politics. Can you not see
that this is misguided? Pirsig uses examples to explain Quality. These
examples are not meant to be a dictum on the way SQ should be. DMB
completely dismisses DQ, again claiming some mystical interpretation that
is as far away from rationality as it gets.
If we are to discuss Pirsig's model, the primary focus of such discussion
should be in its interpretation of Quality. If members are unwilling to
discuss this, then they have completely missed the point of Pirsig's
books. This is a metaphysics OF Quality, not a metaphysics of SQ. Science
already provides that. Science brings forth the four levels that are
presented. Science is metaphysics of the objective which includes the
intellect, the way in which it is dealt with in MoQ. What happened to DQ?
DMB has completely objectified what MoQ teaches. He has classified
everything in Aristotelian fashion. This is exactly what MoQ is against.
I do not blame dmb since he must take an academic stance on these things.
However, the Western academic approach is exactly what Phaedrus was
fighting against. It is a pity that we have come full circle.
Go ahead, refute what I say in a rational way. If you have nothing to say
that is not complaining then just remain quiet and let some of us discuss
MoQ in terms of its presentation of Quality. Do you even know what Quality
is?!
* Side note: it was funny, of course, when following a string of posts
accusing DMB of weakness and inferiority for providing evidence, quotes and
citations, to see Pirsig's comments on politics be summarily dismissed as
weak and inferior because he doesn't provide evidence, quotes and
citations. I guess the lesson is you only need citations when you challenge
right-wing orthodoxies (and my guess is they would be dismissed anyway as
'biased'), any other time citations just prove stupidity.
Mark:
Lila was not meant to be a treatise on politics or society. At the
beginning of ZAMM he explained that such book was not about Zen, or about
Motorcycle maintenance. He should have made the same disclaimer at the
beginning of Lila. Pirsig does not have the background to make educated
statements about these things. He himself would say as much. He uses
these things as analogies to present Quality, and how the paradigm of
Quality can bring an alternate view to such things. The question should
be, is he effective in presenting Quality. Obviously he was not for many
in this forum, since they do not see the importance of Quality in MoQ.
[Horse]
I have said that this list should be expressly about Pirsig's MoQ and not a
mish-mash of poorly thought out 'in my opinion' nonsense. Pirsig is the
best place to go for evidence of how the MoQ works and quotes supporting a
position.
Mark:
Horse, I completely agree with you. Why don't you present something about
MoQ rather than arbitrarily condemn those of us who do because we do not
agree with another. What is a discussion without music? You are playing a
marching band. Zappa would be disappointed. Try a little jazz.
[Arlo]
I, in no way, meant to imply fault on your end, Horse. In fact, if
anything, I include your voice to the voices that have been drown out by
the trolling. I do understand, of course, that its never just that, we all
have other lives and other endeavors, but its sad that the stronger voices
here (apart from DMB) are no longer as active.
Mark:
Ah yes, the complaint by the norm. Just remember, Phaedrus was a wolf, not
some academic philosopher trying to fit everything into Western thought.
Stronger voices? Is this the marching band you are referring to? Why are
there not more people on this forum seeing as how popular ZAMM was? This
is because of such voices who have relegated ZAMM (Pirisg's autobiography)
to some trivial post. Everything you need to know is in ZAMM. Lila has
simply led most astray.
[Horse]
Take back the list now or risk losing it to wooly-headed garbage. It's your
choice.
Mark:
Yes, I agree. Let's discuss MoQ, not some political ideal. Let us discuss
Quality in metaphysical terms. How about you Horse? Have you got any
contributions? Do you think MoQ is a good presentation of Quality? If so,
Why?
[Arlo]
Agree. I admit to my own part in letting the nonsense get in the way.
Mark:
If you find it to be nonsense, then provide a rational explanation as to
why. All this complaining and victimization that I read in the forum has
got to stop. Provide an argument against what I present. Stop whining,
this is the real world, not some academy award presentation.
Best regards and I look forward to a coherent argument.
Mark, another wolf.
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