Nice Mr Thomas nice, doubt the issues you raise will get much intelligent response.
David M David Thomas <[email protected]> wrote: >All, > >For quite some time many here have had their knickers in a knot over >Marsha's interpretation of Pirsig's work vis-à-vis Buddhism. The latest >pissing and moaning centers around this: > >[Pirsig ZaMM pg 82] >Phædrus raised his hand and asked coldly if it was believed that the atomic >bombs that had dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were illusory. The >professor smiled and said yes. That was the end of the exchange. >Within the traditions of Indian philosophy that answer may have been >correct, but for Phædrus and for anyone else who reads newspapers regularly >and is concerned with such things as mass destruction of human beings that >answer was hopelessly inadequate. He left the classroom, left India and gave >up. > >[Dave] >If Phædrus was so disgusted with Eastern philosophy then; Why was it so >imperative to marry it to Western philosophy later on? And why pick the most >militant leaning of all Buddhism's, Zen. Was he so socially and historically >unaware of the Oriental history that he did not understand that "Zen and the >Art of Archery." in historical terms was really, "Zen and the Art of >Killing People with a Bow and Arrow" If philosophy in Western societies was >deemed so critical to their underlying social problems; Why was Zen not >evaluated vis-à-vis Eastern societies and their historic social problems? >You know observe, like empiricism is supposed to do? > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_at_War > >It's not like the information wasn't available. The D.T. Suzuki mentioned >negatively on this website published "Zen and Japanese Culture" in 1938 >which was is based on lectures given in America and England in 1936. It was >republished for the mass market in English in 1959. Roughly 1/3 of the book >deals with Zen's adoption and use to cultivate warriors over a period of >1300 years until Japan emerged in the Meiji period (1864) as an aggressive, >militant, nationalist society that waged imperialist wars upon its neighbors >until they were finally stopped by Hiroshima and Nagasaki. > >From Suzuki's second chapter, "Zen and the Samurai" we read: > >"In Japan, Zen was intimately related from the beginning of its history to >the life of the samurai. ...Zen has sustained them in two ways, morally and >philosophically. Morally, because Zen is a religion which teaches us not to >look backward once a course is decided upon; philosophically, because it >treats life and death indifferently." > >"In those days we can say that the Japanese genius went either to the >priesthood of to soldiery. The spiritual cooperation of the two professions >could not help but contribute to the creation of what is now generally known >as Bushido, "the way of the warrior." > >"What finally has come to constitute Bushido,... [is] loyalty, filial piety, >and benevolence...and to always be ready to face death, that is, to >sacrifice oneself unhesitatingly when the occasion arises." > >We see this bending of the national psyche of Japan to this Zen philosophy >prior to and during WWII is akin to the fanaticism of radical Islam today. >The individual, the self, both yours and your enemy's is nonexistent, there >is no shared humanity, only duty to the "Ideas" of loyalty and filial piety >to your society. This maybe a great strategy when you are on the attack but >when you are losing and your defeat is all but assured, it appears as sheer >madness. A complete national loss of "rationality." And that can scare the >fuck out of your enemy causing them to treat you and you treated them. "Tit >for Tat" psychology. > >What we observe, empirically, is when "Zen [as] a religion which teaches us >not to look backward once a course is decided upon," it flies fully in the >face of pragmatism with most always disastrous consequences. > >>[DMB] >> I think it would be safe to say that being murdered by atomic weapons or by >> genocide would count as a violation of human rights. As Pirsig points out >> even >> with respect to imposing the death penalty on a convicted murderer, the >> evolutionary growth and the intellectual freedom of dead people is extremely >> limited. Kaput. >> >> Marsha's answer isn't just incorrect. It's also morally bankrupt - if not >> completely devoid of morality - and the cold-heartedness of it is downright >> creepy. >[Dave] >Right " it is more moral for an idea to kill a society than it is for a >society to kill an idea."(Lila-77) Always and forever absolutely moral. For >instance Pirsig claims "communism" is a high quality, morally supreme >intellectual pattern. Why then does Andre place three of the heroes of this >movement on his list below? I thought you were congenital twins. > >Perhaps you might enlighten us on why the murder of of the men and women of >Pearl Harbor by enlightened Zen warriors was a good, a moral thing, while >the use of atomic weapons at Hiroshima and Nagasaki is a violation of human >rights. Oh, oh, I know, because Americans did it. And Pirsig has made it >quite clear what an awful, degenerate places are those under sway of Western >Philosophy. Look at how it ruined his life. I'm not sure who's whining is >more morally repugnant, yours or his. > >Just to refresh memories: http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2129.html > >"On July 27, 1945, the Allied powers requested Japan in the Potsdam >Declaration to surrender unconditionally, or destruction would continue. >However, the military did not consider surrendering under such terms, >partially even after US military forces dropped two atomic bombs on >Hiroshima and Nagasaki on August 6 and 9, and the Soviet Union entered the >war against Japan on August 8. > >On August 14, however, Emperor Showa finally decided to surrender >unconditionally." > >I would suggest that the dropping of the bombs was analogous to a Zen >teacher slapping a student up side the head (and all the other similar Zen >stories). It is was sufficiently outrageous and shocking to bring them back >to reality. They became nationally "enlightened." Oh by the way it worked. >They now are a democratic society that is the single beacon of social and >economic stability in all of Asia. And Zen's power over Japan's society has >waned to the point that many orders sole support is charging to maintain >cemeteries and presiding at funerals. > >>[Andre] >>May as well discuss whether the actions of a Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol >>Pot, Mugabe, Idi Amin, Nixon, Bush and many others, (responsible for the >>killing of over 100 million people during the last century) were >>'conditionally', or 'like an illusion' real or not. > >Hey Andre, what can I tell you that's Zen. Pirsig picked it, Marsha didn't. >Remember, communism is a high quality intellectual pattern who's source is >undefined Dynamic Quality and is subject to no moral authority except >itself. > >Oh, to be accurate to your interpretation of Pirsig, don't you both need to >include every American president from, say, Washington? They're all a bunch >of murderers, war makers. Killing off all those potential morally superior >intellectual patterns, spontaneously blooming from undefined quality. Except >of course if the people killed are like Lila and Rigel who are intellectual >nowhere. > >Every wonder why Buddhism has been charged with nihilism for eons? > >I know, I know, just like Pirsig, it all been a big misunderstanding. > >Tell that to my father's generation who fought, died, and had their lives, >body's, and head's fucked up in the Pacific theater. > >Get real, > >Dave > > > > >Moq_Discuss mailing list >Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >Archives: >http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
