Hello Andre --
Ham said to John:
Society depends upon individual (not 'concrete'?) identities who
collectively establish their moral standards, and ideally vote for
representatives in government who will foster those standards.
Andre:
No Hamilton! Social patterns of value do NOT comprise 'individual
identities' and they certainly do NOT establish their 'moral standards'.
We are here discussing Pirsig's MoQ, not your essential psychological
need.
It was John who changed the subject line to SOM in order to part from the
discussion on schooling. I was attempting to address his concern about a
"de facto necessity that the Giant MUST operate according to an SOM system."
And I did not say that social patterns of value "comprise individual
identities." However, individual values DO drive the social norm to a
collective morality (with or without government, I should add.)
There is a moral code that establishes the supremacy of social order over
biological life (your individual identities) these are the 'conventional
morals' and then there were moral codes over the social order i.e. the
intellectual order over the social order. Nowhere is an individual to be
found within any of the social or intellectual patterns.
Individual bodies are found at the organic level.
Again, Andre, I'm not talking about individual "bodies", for heaven sakes!
If you folks are bound to subject-object duality, at least keep the 'M' out
of it. There is no duality implicit in metaphysics. Subjects and objects
are the reified products of experienced value, as is the whole of existence.
Don't get me wrong Hamilton! I like your mention of Schroedinger's
insight but the way you go about integrating this insight leaves much to
be desired.
The author's name is Gerald Schroeder.
Ham, previously:
And everything in existence, including its values, is differentiated from
every other. The human being itself is a differentiated entity. There can
be but one Absolute Source, and it "creates" otherness by negation.
Andre:
SOM to the core. The manifestation of 'otherness' is negated by the source
itself Hamilton!! There are no persons, there are no individuals, there
is no self! Read something (at least) of what is attributed to Gautama
Buddha's sayings and insights. He made them 2600 years ago!
I gather that you have not properly understood Schroedinger nor your
own life lessons. Whilst this scientist points to the unity, you
immediately transform this into negation by individuation and
differentiation and interposing a relational relationship not only between
the individual (which creates a differentation) but also between the
'unity' and the 'individual'.
The only "source" Dr. Schroeder identifies is God. As a scientist, his
conclusions follow from the evidence, which is that the laws of nature are
governed by a creative intelligence that transcends physical reality.
"Wisdom, information, an idea, is the link between the metaphysical creating
Force and the physical creation." That Wisdom is his "hidden face of God."
It's time to realize that the MoQ seeks to include rather than exclude...
. To use other expressions, pointing to the same thing, there is no
individuation at the social level nor at the individual level. The MoQ
seeks to combine, integrate, and harmonize that which is patterned
(DQ/sq) and it is wonderfully successful.
Well, then, I'm happy for you that the MoQ is so successful. It makes me
wonder why so many words are expended to make that case.
I hope you know why the MoQ does not adhere to 'absolute sources'?
No I don't, Andre. Tell me why Mr. Pirsig does not subscribe to an absolute
source? It would seem to be fundamental to a metaphysical thesis.
--Ham
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