Dan said to John:
...The driving forces of the social level are celebrity values of fame and 
wealth. ...Praise is a form of celebrity value, like the applause the actor 
hears after nailing a particularly difficult line. A raise in pay or a bonus is 
wonderful but if it doesn't come with a pat on the back, it means less. In 
fact, it means nothing.   Notice that none of this has anything to do with 
subject/object metaphysics.


dmb says:
Yep. Fame and fortune, wealth and celebrity, are the central organizing 
principles of social level values. The giant operates on ego, face, honor and a 
whole lot of posturing. How do celebrities get famous and how do the wealthy 
get so rich? By serving the giant and serving him well. How does Pirsig put it? 
Sex is to biological values and celebrity is to social values. 
The idea that wisdom is more valuable than fame and fortune is as old as 
Plato’s dialogues, at least, but Pirsig frames them in an evolutionary 
hierarchy and otherwise turbo-charges the idea. Celebrity is to society as sex 
is to biology, he says. Celebrity is the central organizing principle that 
shapes and directs the culture, he says, a fundamental force in social 
evolution. We can’t know how far back the celebrity factor goes, maybe all the 
way back to the early Pleistocene era, but it is conspicuously on display 
already in some of the world’s oldest writing, in the first cuneiform tablets 
of ancient Babylon. Of all the things that could be written at the dawn 
civilization, what do these ancient clay tablets actually say? It’s mostly 
audacious bragging. I can almost hear it preformed as a rap song.
“I, Hammurabi, am the big wheel here. I have this many horses and this many 
concubines and his many slaves and this many oxen, and I am one of the greatest 
of the greatest kings there ever was, and you better believe it.” (Lila 256)
Same as it ever was, it’s all about me and my bling. “That’s what writing was 
invented for,” Pirsig says. All the gods, kings, heroes and villains, and 
legendary warriors are celebrities too, not very different from today’s sports 
stars, rock stars, film characters and the actors who portray them. As Pirsig 
tells it, our culture is filled with all kinds of “celebrity devices”. These 
devices include things like awards, trophies and blue ribbons, titles, gossip 
and ass-kissing, as well as the badges, uniforms and robes of authority. Even 
monumental architecture like the pyramids of Egypt or Trump Tower would count 
as celebrity devices. This celebrity force is like a never-ending and 
all-consuming popularity contest. It’s just like high school, except with lots 
of lawyers, guns, and money.
“High school was really the place for celebrity. That’s what had those jocks 
out playing football every afternoon. That’s what the pom-pom girls were all 
about. It was celebrity. …In fact you can measure the quality of a university 
by comparing the relative strengths of the celebrity patterns and the 
intellectual patterns. You never get rid of the celebrities, even at the best 
universities, but there the intellectuals could ignore them and be in a class 
by themselves.” (Lila 257)
Please notice that Pirsig doesn’t just make a distinction between “social” and 
“intellectual” values, he sets them into a ranked order wherein the celebrity 
factor is supposed to decrease in importance as we mature or develop. He makes 
a case, well beyond the topic of fame and fortune, that social and intellectual 
values are not only distinctly different from each other, they are sometimes 
even opposed to each other. The unflattering idea of “selling-out” serves as a 
handy example of their opposition. It’s a shameful thing for a person to 
abandon their principles for the sake of cash, popularity, nookie, or otherwise 
bend to expedience. The artists, scientists and philosophers aren’t supposed to 
be in it for the money or the fame. They’re supposed to care about beauty, 
truth, and wisdom.
On this view, trading such things for cash isn’t like prostitution. It is 
prostitution. It feels degenerate, sleazy and wrong, Pirsig says, because it 
is. He explains his decision not to sell his book to Redford in these terms. He 
shouldn’t give up the rights because books of philosophy are intellectual and 
movies are social, Pirisg thought. That’s what everyone was telling him anyway. 
One of Pirsig’s earliest and most enthusiastic fans, the New Yorker critic 
George Steiner told him not to. You’ll be sorry if you do, he warned. Pirsig’s 
Manhattan attorney told him the same thing. “Look, if you love your book my 
advice is don’t sell it to Hollywood,” he said. Even Redford warned him not to 
do it. Hollywood movies are about good guys and bad guys, about drama, conflict 
and action. There’s no chance that they won’t wreck it, Pirsig thought, not 
even with a stand-up dude like Robert Redford at the helm. That’s why Pirsig’s 
book still hasn’t been turned into movie. It probably won’t get made unless and 
until somebody figures out how to do it without abandoning the philosophical 
content of Zen and the Art.
Pirsig has a few words about his own celebrity, about the weirdness of suddenly 
becoming famous himself. He was world-class nerd for most of his life and 
certainly not the type of guy that would be of any interest to the pom-pom 
girls. But after his first book was published ladies at parties would come over 
to rub up against him, teenage girls would squeal with delight at the sight of 
him, and powerful woman felt that they had to have him. There is the darker 
side too, with stalkers and psychotic fans. Those distorting mirrors can mess 
with a person’s head in all kinds of ways – so Pirsig quietly spends his time 
at home. These chapters on the nature of celebrity are titillating and slightly 
obscene but they are interesting – if not genuinely illuminating – and Pirsig 
finishes the topic with a thought-provoking question.
“Money and celebrity are fame and fortune, traditionally paired as twin forces 
in the dynamic generation of social values. Both fame and fortune are huge 
dynamic parameters that give society its shape and meaning.We have whole 
departments of universities, in fact, whole colleges, devoted to the study of 
economics, that is fortune, but what do we have that is similarly devoted to 
the study of fame?” (Lila 258)





                                          
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