Adrie,Of course I want to think youre trying to teach me something. That all those typos and negligence are just a facade. To lure me to think Im smarter than I really am.
I have recollections of a world in which there is time and depth. You think I dont but I do.
I dont know if there are people around here whod like to push me down so that they themselves can shine. But I push everyone else down if they give me the slightest reason to do so and if I can. And then we have a bunch of people who are pushing each other down. A bunch of people who have to go elsewhere to breathe so that theyd be able to come back here to push each other down more forcefully. And even if I won that game Im not saying its such an awesome game.
I do have recollections of a place in which there is time and depth and this is a place that has made people like Pirsig write great works of literature.
I do have recollections of a place in which ice cream is meaningful. In which eating ice cream on a bench at summer is the best thing you can do and the only thing that really meant something to you that whole week.
Im not there right now. And if thats the only thing you have that you can use against me, do so. I know what that place is and I know Im not there. Call that place the MOQ if you like.
Tuk Lainaus [email protected]:
Adrie, why don't you learn to read before you write me another message? I've read LILA and I didn't say I haven't read it. And, just for the record, that woman I mentioned earlier was broke. But no more stories for you. Learn to read first. Tuk Lainaus Adrie Kintziger <[email protected]>:Working on the moq since you were 16?, i don't think so, because about three weeks ago, you stated that you did not completely read 'lila',and it really shows that you did not read it. You have no idea towards the content of 'lila', 'lila's child ' or ZAm. I'm not your enemy , Tuuk, but i found most of mine and Dan, and David's postings here cut/copy'd and pasted away to the neighboring geeklist as if we were posting them there ourselves?;;;;;but we did not do such thing. You did not get caught in Pirsig's trap, Tuuk or in DMB's trap,but in the Norwegian trap.You can be the Jester there. Here it won't work 2016-12-07 22:29 GMT+01:00 Tuukka Virtaperko <[email protected]>:I'm not eristic. Dialectics is my way of pursuing the truth. It always has been. I have always been old in that sense. But it is also childlish to always pursue the truth. Old people say that's the best thing to do but they know when not to do it. Usually. When I was a child I had debates with adults. I kept doing it for a long time. At first I was bewildered about how stupid these adults are. But it's not much fun anymore. I certainly don't do this stuff for fun. I do it when I need to kick some much-deserving ass. "Deserving", you say. "Why?" you ask. Well... because they were wrong. If I've worked on the MOQ since I was sixteen do I or do I not care about whether someone is wrong about the MOQ? Odds are I care. But, you know, I don't want to really kick somebody's ass. I'm not perfect either. I'd like to forgive. But if they fight back, what is there to forgive? Nothing if I know I'm not crazy. I could be crazy. But if I've made something of logic and it says they're wrong then I'm not crazy. Then it's not about me. Then it's about the truth. Tuk On 07-Dec-16 22:58, Adrie Kintziger wrote:does this cover the previous 4 mails for congruence of the content? comparable? Plato could be wrong,of course. 2016-12-07 21:56 GMT+01:00 Adrie Kintziger <[email protected]>: Plato,- Republicsnip out of context. He cannot. And from being a keeper of the law he is converted into a breaker of it? Unquestionably. Now all this is very natural in students of philosophy such as I have described, and also, as I was just now saying, most excusable. Yes, he said; and, I may add, pitiable. Therefore, that your feelings may not be moved to pity about our citizens who are now thirty years of age, every care must be taken in introducing them to dialectic. Certainly. There is a danger lest they should taste the dear delight too early; for youngsters, as you may have observed, when they first get the taste in their mouths, argue for amusement, and are always contradicting and refuting others in imitation of those who refute them; like puppy-dogs, they rejoice in pulling and tearing at all who come near them. Yes, he said, there is nothing which they like better. And when they have made many conquests and received defeats at the hands of many, they violently and speedily get into a way of not believinganything which they believed before, and hence, not only they, but philosophy and all that relates to it is apt to have a bad name with the rest of the world. Too true, he said. But when a man begins to get older, he will no longer be guilty of such insanity; he will imitate the dialectician who is seeking for truth, and not the eristic, who is contradicting for the sake of amusement; and the greater moderation of his character will increase instead of diminishing the honour of the pursuit. 2016-12-07 5:21 GMT+01:00 Tuukka Virtaperko <[email protected]>: I don't like gambling. That feels like work. If you gamble you have to docalculations or be knowledgeable about horses, or someone else is gonna take your money. I already gambled my youth on philosophy and isn't time money? When I came here to debate some age-old issue with you I didn't expect to make progress. It's just that Dan offered the damn thing on a silver plate. Of course I make logic out of it, how can someone not do that after they've received free private education? Do you know how free private education feels like? It makes you feel special. It makes you feel like "The rest of the people don't even know this but if there's something logical I'm gonna take a shot at it." And then there it is, Pirsig made a mistake. Boom! Yeah, I get my kicks out of that. Because that stuff has been around for years and I'm the first to notice. So I have this paradoxical character of liking to take risks and being extremely patient. But it doesn't mean I wouldn't like the fast stuff. I like that, too. It's just that I also like the slow stuff. Tuk On 07-Dec-16 5:01, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote: Adrie,when I step out of dialectics I tend to immediately proceed to theology, art, adventures, experimental culture or something like that. I used to like continental philosophy more but it started feeling like, if we're just wading in all this rhetoric we will not build something that lasts but we will merely take a snapshot of the atmosphere we're living in. I just wanted to make something really solid I can trust not to go away for some reason that escapes my comprehension. If it's made of logic and it's good, it can last millennia. But yeah, not all things need to last *that* long. I've been studying socionics lately. It's just so much easier to approach people in terms of logical structure. It makes me keep my focus. Sometimes when I'm around people I feel bad because I don't know what to expect. Socionics allows me to devise vague expectations that are so vague they don't mean much, but just enough to make the part of me that wants to control calm down so that some other functions of my personality can become active. I used to be popular in high school. But I was so in my own world I didn't even notice. Sometimes I'd like to feel younger again. But, no offense, that's probably not how I'm going to feel here with you guys. Family? Heart condition? You know, I sometimes do this kind of random stuff such as meet a total stranger and go keep company to her while she's shoplifting. And when we're near the exit she becomes convinced she's not going to get caught - that nobody noticed - and she just closes her eyes and smiles. She gets off on that. And I like to watch. Do people with a family and a heart condition do that? If it's not analytical philosophy I want it to be exciting. And I don't think continental philosophy is exciting. Tuk On 07-Dec-16 4:42, Tuukka Virtaperko wrote: Adrie,On 04-Dec-16 17:03, Adrie Kintziger wrote: @Tuuk.Your statement above is not entirely correct.And i do not think it would be honest to say that you cannot post mail's here without someone else trys to copulate with it either. I took a big snip back from the beginning of the thread. "quote", Tuukka. If you're calling me unnatural, I agree. I trek and am familiar with nature, I feel it. But there are degrees of separation from nature. Consider the guy who designs the electronics inside your cell phone. He's pretty far detached from nature. But then again, consider an African with a cell phone. He possibly owns very few electronic devices. But many Africans do have a cell phone. I think the African with the cell phone is less detached from nature than the guys (and girls) who designed the electronics and coded the software inside. So, these nerds (Hell if Adrie doesn't accuse me of being a nerd. I could call him a flibbertigibbet but that would go nowhere.) change nature. They could some day create nature on different planet. I know, that doesn't interest anyone here, clearly. But they could still do it. The point is, technology can help us express our nature. And if technology gets good enough we will have more time to cultivate the delightful aspects of what does it mean to be a biological organism. Which is what you want. But you don't want to be part of the process if that requires you to change your thinking. You only want the result. And do you know why that makes me feel bad? It makes me feel bad because I have to do this because of who I am. I don't have enough social skills. If I try to do that "emotional intelligence" thing people do at my posts, which apparently means throwing poop at them like monkeys or staring at them like ducks, I end up doing something else than maximizing my potential. But the paradox in me maximizing my potential is in me doing things that don't make me happy. That don't mean living a full life. So, I'm always balancing between "you're going to break yourself that way" and "now you're just trying to drown the pain you feel all the time". The break myself part means that I don't eat, I don't have a social life, I get so serious and competitive I start feeling intimidated by people with good social skills... because I'm so serious I don't feel like I'm going to enlighten people like some guy in a robe. I feel like I'm going to KILL the ignorance in them like some guy driving a tank. So, obviously my natural instinct becomes to suspect that the emotionally intelligent people share this mindset even though they're just getting good vibes from helping people. I feel like they're punishing me for who I am because I can't behave up to their standards. But sometimes I get so sick of that. I'm really not inhumane enough. Because that serious and competitive attitude does make me sick. So then I try to feel. Live a life of feelings. And it's difficult because usually I really don't care. If I love someone, then I care. Otherwise I really don't care. I'm not sure what "universal love" means or whether it's attainable for me. Sometimes temporarily it may be. And you think I live this way because I think it's a good way to live a life. No, I don't think anybody should live like this unless they're good at what they do. If you do this but you're never going to be good at it, well, unless somebody pays you to do it anyway, or unless you do it just for fun, stop doing it. That's my advice to anyone. You don't need to teach me I'm hurting myself by living this kind of a life. I know it already. I'm not imposing a lifestyle on you! I'm only imposing the results of my pain-in-the-ass research on you. I could do something else. A lot of people would want me to draw cartoons. But nobody has ever told me a coherent acount of why I couldn't be extremely good at this. I think I'm better at this than anyone I know. Yup, another proof that I have no social skills. A suave person might have thought that of himself but wouldn't have said it. ------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- Comment. I did not call you a nerd, nor doi think you are a nerd.What you wrote above is very consistent,taken from real life itself,and seems very honest and open. It is not a bad thing to analyse one self.Knowing yourself is essential to find wisdom. I did re-read the entire mail here, and most of it really should not be criticised at all.The posting was not directed at me,but it is quit clear that nobody here reacted on it. Nobody tought it was nessecary to copulate with it, or trow poop at it right? When i read it, to be honest,and to adress your points of view expressed here, i see no need to ridicule you, or to call in the cheerleaders either,.......it ain't very sad, your story,nor does it appears to be filosophical.Most of the problems you talk about here are simply life's difficulties,nothing else. They are not attached to one individual solely. The social skills you keep reffering to?, some whitparts in these posting snaps?, you think too much of it ,kiddo,life itself nor the social skills you project here, or wich are projected as absent in the path you'r on right now, will make the lights burn, or produce a book. Life itself is not all that "Pompous", or as we say in Belgium and Holland,life itself is not all that " hoogdravend",as we wished it to be.Forget the playing part,you'r way passed puberty,forget mom and dad,as you cannot rely on them when you grow up.Forget the the winig part," i do not eat", or" i damage myself", .............leave it behind or it will consume you. You need to be a caracter on your own. Work for yourself.Complaining is useless.It does not work. But is all the above that you wrote decent?, yes off course it is,so why would i call you a nerd?.But i can also see that you are under a lot of pressure to start talking about filosophy or Pirsig,or related material,because that's the purpose of this list right?,.....What is holding you back? i'm not.Nobody is exept yourself. Tuk:Well, uhh, I'm really mostly just interested of the dialectical part of philosophy. If it's philosophy, dialectics, please. But if it's life... that's a different story. It's just that you're interacting with my work persona here. When Bo had to go to the hospital I was worried. And I expressed it. But after he came back we just kept debating. The Diamond Sutra pretty much captures the aspect of philosophy that isn't dialectical and that I like. And it captures the point of MOQ, the undefinability of (Dynamic) Quality. And I didn't even get it by reading the MOQ. I got it when someone else read the Diamond Sutra to me. But after I "got" it I regarded it as obvious and kept on doing dialectics because of a million good reasons. It's like people thought once you realize dialectics is just dialectics you're supposed to stop doing it. I don't think so. Tuk I did doubt it for some time weather or not i would comment on thenext snip, but i will. snip (Yeah, I've occasionally been one of the cool guys, too. Still am. But I don't know much about what to do with that. It looks like I probably should be one of the guys who makes things for people who actually need them because they have a life. If you were one of those laborers, would you never feel envious? Maybe, if you wouldn't know how good the living feel. But they can feel really good. And once you know that, you realize you're on a space mission because even though you can understand what these emotionally intelligent people have accomplished in life, you realize that's not what your life is gonna be. And you search and search for a way to change that, but you can't find any. And if you just keep searching too long you start feeling like: "Now I'm not going to even achieve that nerdy shit I could've made work had I just given up about life soon enough!") comment. The above explanation is the story of the kings "fool" or "nar" or in english "jester"!!. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jester Nobody gets away with a life like that anymore.You will find some of them still today in the big city's like Rome, or Amsterdam, trying to enchant some tourists, or show them some magic with cardgames,or play the gitar before the vatican(playing 'titanic')(pun intended), i mean,Jester's do not get a pension, they have no future or purpose.......... I did not use this explanation to make a fool of you, Tuukka,but either you will play along with life's demands, or it will leave you behind. Given all the above, and in the light of the controverse about Pirsig's wherabouts and adress,and you last posting consideret i can say that it is a certainty that tim rappl is a real Jester,a drugged and doped one. do not follow his lead, Tuuka,be a personality of your own. Adrie 2016-12-04 12:25 GMT+01:00 <[email protected]>: David,nice. Now you're pretending it was your idea that I leave him alone. Nothing else to do than try to get inside someone else's skin? I can't even post a message on MD without someone trying to copulate with it... that must be why Pirsig doesn't do so either. Regards, Tuk Quoting david <[email protected]>: I don't know what Robert Pirsig has been doing lately but normally he drinks coffee at his desk each morning while reading the news andthe posts on this forum, among other things. If that's still true, then he knows your email address and he knows you'd like to be in contact. But so would many, many, many other people. And nobody is capable of satisfying that kind of demand. Nobody. And he's retired, likes to meditate, and otherwise keep to himself. Plus he's in his 80s. Please, don't take it personally if I suggest that you let it go and leave him alone. And I take my own advice, by the way. I could bother him but I don't. Out of respect for his peace of mind and expressed wishes. He's done talking about the MOQ with fans. That's all there is to it. True story. "I'm retired," he said, "you guys take it from here." ________________________________ From: Moq_Discuss <[email protected]> on behalf of [email protected] <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2016 2:15 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [MD] Rhetoric I haven't noticed that Tim would've posted Pirsig's street address on LS. Even if he did, I'd feel uncomfortable writing Pirsig had I obtained his address in such a way. At this point Pirsig, if in sufficient health, is perfectly capable of figuring out who I am and what's my business. Meeting him would be an honor and I wouldn't require a particular kind of a meeting. If he anyway does not wish to contact me, why should I think any more of it? A man of his age needn't think of work, that's for sure. There's more to life, such as cooking sausages in the fireplace. That's what I'm going to do next, anyway. 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