Regarding my confusion on Pirsig's understanding of the mutual
containment of mind and matter:
Roger replied:
"Mind is connected to inorganic patterns that form our brain, and
what we call matter is an intellectual pattern."
Yes - but connected through two other levels of reality - the
biological and the social, without which...and here is where I seem
to part with a lot of you:
Intellect could not, did not, does not and will not exist without a
level of reality known as social pov's, which (...not) exist without
biological reality... which needs matter and energy. (the Universe as
understood by astronomers, the earth by geologists...)
Kev replied:
>"Contained" means unified. I have talked a great deal about how
>Dynamic Quality equals the unification of myriad, divided static
>qualities, but basically Pirsig means that the subject and the
object >are One.
>Only through their union at the Quality Event can either exist.
>This oneness precedes and creates both mind and matter. This oneness
>is true value - Dynamic Quality
Yes. This makes perfect sense. At the "preintellectual (Dynamic)
cutting edge of reality" there is no division, etc... this is very
clear.
But - I'm not sure if P means that the sub and obj are One.
At least - not "outside" or "after" the Quality Event.
Isn't the old dualistic understanding now seen as: sub's and obj's,
in the WAKE of DQ, are BEST understood as FOUR patterns of value. He
adds, again, that these patterns are DISCRETE - quantized. Their only
relation is an evolutionary one.
So - I agree that at/for/by/in DQ all is ONE. This is the mystic
reality which Zen points to, but refuses to logically describe or
even talk about, since... "The Tao which can be named is not the
eternal Tao." And we all seem to speak as if this is the only 'real'
'reality'. But - Pirsig makes very clear that Quality is not
exclusively Dynamic or static. Both moral situations are necessary
for the continued manifestation of Quality. If DQ cannot exist
without static pov's, then are the spov's not JUST as real?
I have been struggling with where TIME fits into the MOQ. It seems
that DQ in ONE sense of the 'word' is talking about being REALLY,
infinitesimally close to the QUALITY EVENT. And patterns of value are
more static the further away from DQ they are in time.
If DQ is that driving, preconceptual, evolutionary force of
BETTERNESS, I am then led to understand that the closer to the
Quality Event, the better... But is not ALL of reality a "continuous
stream of QE's?
Whoah - I'm really spinning now...
Kev further wrote (typed, really)
>In short, all minds are made up of matter (a brain is atoms)
>and all matter is made of mind (an atom is its own brain).
No - I think this is perhaps missed, or I don't fully get it:
The way I understand it is:
Intellectual value does not exist, CAN NOT exist without social
patterns of value. This is perfectly logical.
i.e. - why is it that primitive, isolated tribes have no mathematics,
science, individual rights and freedoms, etc...? (before contact with
modernity) - Because the society does not value them. Foraging
bushmen have all they need. What intellectual morality exists, would,
I think, be solely located in the leader's position. Making moral
decisions for the tribe (i.e. with intrusion of white man) involves
discriminatory thought. The group just follows.
---this example is way too simplified. I don't really like it, but is
my point clear?
---and now I look and see the Zuni's brujo - from which Pirsig first
hit on the DQ/sQ split. Dynamic Quality was expressed in brujo's call
for white man's help. Intellectual pattern of value crystallized in
wake - he became decisionmaking governor, probably learned english,
some math?...
Social values cannot, do not exist, without biological patterns of
value(organisms) which interact.
i.e. It is mating season.
A bird is flying, looking for food (static bio pattern)
Bird sees nice looking female. (Dynamic bio value)
Bird begins very elaborate mating rituals - calls, dances, etc..
(which are social spov's)
Birds go at it.(really Dynamic) (how do they, anyway?)
Lay eggs - nest becomes social spov.
Biological values cannot, do not exist without PRIOR presence of
inorganic pov's (formerly understood as 'matter')
i.e. The Carbon situation Pirsig gives, which I think is really quite
an excellent example.
A bio pattern is created Dynamically from inorganic pov's
Inorganic values cannot, do not exist without CHAOS?
hmmmm...this sounds silly to me. Also admitting reality which is not
a pattern of value, and can this be DQ?... chapter 12. I'll have to
sit on this one.
Anyway, gotta go before I pull a Phaedrus.
rich
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