DaPhred and squad, You are absolutely right that my posting was a matter of my own interpretation. Rather than probe into the esoteric points of Pirsig's every uttering I would prefer that the squad take every chapter of ZMM and Lila that are not purely narrative and discuss their overall meaning. Except for the one quote in Lila that I have not found yet I see none of your quotes from either ZMM or Lila that is at variance with my ideas. I will go through the books again with an eye to our differences but I think that we are reading Pirsig differently. It is true that he was forced to include mysticism in a definition of Quality but I interpret that to mean that they are just not knowable. The origin of Quality is mystical because we don't know where it came from or what caused it and DQ is not knowable because it happens subliminally. In both cases we are able to understand their function and think rationally about them. DaPhred: "His Quality was a metaphysical entity, not a mystical one. Or was it? What was the difference? He answered himself that the difference was one of definition. Metaphysical entities are defined. Mystical ones are not. That made Quality mystical, no it was really both. Ken: I define Quality as the organizing force that drives the universe. Once Quality was established and the resulting fundamentals of the universe were in place the entire operation of the universe became rational. We are incapable of following the details after a while because of complexity but that does not mean that those details are not theoretically capable of being followed. DaPhred: Reaching from mystery into deeper mystery it is the gate to the secret of all life. Ken: I do not equate a mystery with mystical. Many things are a mystery to me that are not mystical. DaPhred: "Phaedrus hoped this Quality metaphysics was something that would get past the immune system and show that American Indian mysticism is not something alien from American culture. It's a deep submerged hidden root of it." Ken: As I read this he simply means that Indian mysticism was absorbed into American culture. I am not arguing that mysticism does not exist. Only that it is not a necessary or desirable thing. DaPhred: I just feel strongly that ultimate wisdom cannot be achieved through rational means alone. Ken: Does this mean that there must be a healthy dose of irrationality to achieve ultimate wisdom? I suspect that we are not defining mysticism in the same way. I did not deal with one of your quotes because I could not immediately find it. Is it dark up there Fred? :>) Ken MOQ Online Homepage - http://www.moq.org Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/ Unsubscribe - http://www.moq.org/md/index.html MD Queries - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
