ROGER FINDS WALTER'S QUESTIONS GET
TO THE HEART OF THE DEBATE
NEW DADDY WALTER WROTE:
Two questions for you.
1) You write:
"DQ is everyday Direct Experience"
and
"Reality is Direct Experience"
Can this be, seeing that Quality = Reality = divided in DQ and SQ.
I guessed you meant that Reality is Direct Experience but also the
conceptualisation of this Direct Experience. But then you write:
" SQ is subjectified and objectified patterns. These are conceptual
models that are our best representations of pre-conceptual experience.
These are often CONFUSED WITH REALITY because ...
"they have become such a common apparatus
for describing, understanding and analysing that reality." "
Do you regard the conceptualisation of Direct Experience not as part of
Reality? Please explain?
ROGER:
Is the ocean composed of water or waves? Both answers are correct in their
own way. Waves are patterns that can form in myriads of mediums. My answer is
that Reality is formed of direct experience. Sq is the patterns or waves
abstracted from this experience. But yes, the abstraction process is part of
reality too. Remember my song and my echo analogies? I guess it would be
clearer to say that "These are often confused with THE ESSENCE of reality."
This was how Ant worded his original quote by the way. Good catch, sorry for
the confusion.
WALTER:
2) DQ is Direct Experience, but it is also the Conceptually Unknown.
As Pirsig writes in his SODV-paper:
"I think that science generally agrees that there is something
that has to enter into experiments other than the measuring
instruments, and I think science would agree that "Conceptually
Unknown" is an acceptable name for it. "
How can you reconsile DQ as "the Conceptually Unknown" with
DQ as "Direct Experience". These seem to be two different concepts?
ROGER:
This gets right to the key issue. DQ is direct preconceptual experience. It
is the present, which occurs before we have objectified or subjectified this
experience. It is the leading edge of the stream of quality events. Sq is
the wake. It is experience conceptualized.
Remember, Quality is an event, not a thing. The Conceptually Unknown and the
conceptually known are two sides of the Quality Event.
And by the way, it isn't me who is saying that DQ is DIRECT EXPERIENCE, it is
Pirsig (in numerous places), along with James (that is the central point of
Radical Empiricism), and the Zen philosophers (you guys absolutely must read
Nishida.... he makes the issues so much clearer.)
Later Dude,
Rog
PS -- Squad.....Sorry for posting so many times today, I will be better from
here out.
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