MYSTIC WANNA-BE ROG AGREES 100% WITH DAVE.
DQ HAS BEEN IN THE VALLEYS ALL ALONG
To The Good Dave :-)
>ROGER
>1) DQ is [everyday] Direct Experience.
>2) Reality is composed of Direct Experience.
>3) Conceptualizing is one such experience. Conceptualizing is the
>experience of building models of ourselves and our world. Conceptualizing
>builds static, shallow (though extremely useful) patterns out of dynamic
>prepatterned reality.
>4) The conceptualized, patterned world is a model built from DQ [events
>emanating from the pool of ultimate reality. Quality]
>
>DAVE
>Admire your patient snipping, quoting, and commentary. [Brackets are my
>additions] Don't think you should abandon the "everyday" position in that I
>feel the SQ/DQ LS discussion is about this very point. I have been
>concentrating my reading over the past few months on Zen and Zen history and
>have come to the conclusion that Zen "enlightenment" or "satori" is in part
>about changing ones point of view such that DQ is able to become an
>intuitive
>part of every day existence. Believe Pirsig suggests the same.
>
>Pirsig's references to hurricanes, heart attacks, and hot stoves is merely a
>way to rhetorically and practically show that everyone does and has
>experienced DQ. but that static patterns can and do become so pervasive that
>the everyday experience of DQ is overlooked, lost, or shielded from
>perception.
ROG:
Thank you very much. I like your bracket additions. I read Pirsig exactly as
you comment here. In fact, I think you have said it all clearer than I did
in 20 posts. Even though the evolutionary culling of ideas is quality, it is
nice to get a word of encouragement and a gleam of agreement once or twice
too. I think your Zen explorations with Suzuki and my explorations of Nishida
have led us to common views on some angles of the MOQ that were always there,
but were somehow hidden before. I literally glossed over 90% of the mystical
angles in Lila until I saw similarities in the Zen philosophy of the Kyoto
school. Then they became suddenly obvious.
They say a change in consciousness is like that. When Psychiatrists pour a
glass of water back and forth between a short fat glass and a tall thinner
one and ask children of 3 or 4 years-of-age which has more water the kids
will always say the tall one. Even though the water goes back and forth in
front of their eyes.
A few years later the kids will all say that they hold the same amount.
Suddenly they shift to a keener level of insight. (Though Kevin may
disagree...ha ha) If shown a video of themselves at a younger age saying the
tall one holds more water, they will not believe they could ever possibly
have thought that way. Some even accuse the film of being tampered with!
There are few concepts that I disagree with more than what David B. wrote on
the LS. He said (to paraphrase from memory...sorry) that the workplace is
one of the last places he would expect to find Dhyana. This is to me the
exact antithesis of the MOQ. This is exactly where Pirsig tells us to look
for it. Everyday reality. Not on the esoteric and distant mountaintops, but
in the valleys. Not in some once in a lifetime event, but while going to
work or brushing my teeth. At least that is where I am looking .
And I don't care if I am wrong
Rog
.
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