MD INTERVALUATION

[RISKYBIZ9]

RISKY ROG TO JOVO (AND EVERYONE INTERESTED) ON INTERVALUEING SYSTEMS Hi JoVo! The reason I am so intrigued by your essay is that I have been exploring similar ideas and have come to similar conclusions.� My working term for the concept has been "Positive Sum Quality."�� It uses concepts from physics (self amplifying feedback) and game theory (win/win interactions) to better explain where pattern and order come from within each level, and how each level evolves to the next. Basically, I have found that the win/win interactions of game theory (as originated by Von Neuman) and the physics concept of a feedback loop are really two ways of stating the same idea.� And that idea, which again I am calling POSITIVE SUM QUALITY, overlaps greatly with what you have been writing on elvaleaches, systems and positive value equations. Of course it also overlaps completely with the MOQ. Before going on, let me again warn you off of using "elvaleaches" as a term.   It translates into English into some type of parasite that sucks the blood out of an elf. This is completely at odds with your intended definition.   "Intervalueing" works very well, as does "co-valueing", but it's your term...... Below are some sketchy outlines of some of my work..... QUESTION SET UP/BACKGROUND: According to physic's second law of thermodynamics, in a closed system, such as our universe, disorder will inevitably triumph over order and structure.� Entropy will be maximized. The reason for this is that the second law is a statistical law. There are so many more possible states of disorder than order, that any given closed system is virtually guaranteed to be disordered.  The second law predicts that in the absence of any forces creating order and structure, the universe should be a disperse, featureless, disordered cloud of inert gas.The obvious problem with the entropic model is that it does not correlate at all to the universe of galaxies, stars, and planets that we actually observe.� Our universe is one of variety, complexity and structure that goes well beyond the subatomic realm.� Any metaphysical or scientific theory needs to be able to explain this. I believe that the MOQ explains this through the evolution of value or Quality.  However, I find the MOQ is sketchy in places on how the patterns of each of the levels evolve.  More importantly, Pirsig only briefly addresses the details on HOW each level goes about evolving into a higher level.  I believe Positive Sum Quality (my term) and whatever term you want to use for your concepts does address this issue.  Pirsig has encouraged the Lila Squad to flesh out the vast portions (98% per the author) of the MOQ that are not yet known.  Below is some brief outlines of my first attempt at the task, along with some correlations that seem to exist between your work and mine. QUESTION 1) INORGANIC: WHY IS THE UNIVERSE ORDERED RATHER THAN DISORDERED?� BROAD ANSWER --Quality/value SPECIFIC ANSWER -- There are four "forces" and myriads of "particles" within quantum theory; however, quantum reality -- like the MOQ --  is ultimately constructed of verbs and values rather than nouns or things.� Reality is dynamic interaction, and the amazing breakthrough of modern physics is that it is not things that interact as much as it is interactions which define things.� In the words of Werner Heisenberg, one of the founders of the theory, "The world thus appears as a complicated tissue of events in which connections of different kinds alternate or combine and thereby determine the texture of the whole."� This is reminiscent of Pirsig's quote: by "A thing that has no value does not exist.� The thing has not created the value.� The value has created the thing." The fundamental building blocks of reality are not things, they are events -- Quality events. These events can be described as interactions,� and what we think of as things --such as particles or forces -- are essentially stable patterns of interaction.� In your terms, they seem to be "elvaleaches" or "intervaluations."  would you agree JoVo? But, I still haven't addressed the question.  The reason that the universe is ordered is that one particularly weak force has a special quality or characteristic.  This force, which we call gravity, is universally attractive, infinite in range and its strength is inversely proportionate to distance.  In other words, every "particle" in the universe attracts every other particle, and the closer they get the stronger the attraction.  This establishes a positive, self amplifying feedback loop, or in your words, an intervalueing system.  Gravity is the poster child for what I call a Positive Sum Quality process.  Although infinitessimally small compared to the most powerful force of nature, electromagnetism, gravity is able to allow pattern and structure to overcome the entropy inherent in the larger force. How?  Electromagnetism, though 10 to the 43rd power stronger than gravity, has two values -- positive and negative. as such, it cancels itself out.   Gravity is universally attractive and due to its tendency to attract and its ability to gain strength with closeness, it is self amplifying.  The universe, though overwhelmingly entropic, is ordered and structured and complex via the positive sum intervaluation of weak little gravity. Gravitational "intervaluation" SYSTEMS include stars, planets, solar systems, black holes, galaxies, galactic clusters, and even the entire universe.   Would you agree, JoVo? [Sorry in advance for using such S/O terminology.  Unfortunately, for clarity our language almost requires it.  For the record though, the stream or 'tissue' of Quality events is DQ, and gravity is just one of many simplified, degenerative abstractions of DQ] Q2) BIOLOGICAL: WHY DOES LIFE EVOLVE FROM NON-LIFE? BROAD ANSWER -- Quality/value SPECIFIC ANSWER -- A living system is formed out of advanced chemical feedback loops, where the elements make each other (simple chemical feedback loops are actually fairly commonplace).� The function of each component of a living system such as a cell is to participate in the production or transformation of other components in the network.  In this way the entire network makes itself. It is therefore a win/win, Positive Sum relationship for the chemicals involved and for the larger pattern.� The system is self creating and self maintaining.� In your words, JoVo, would such living systems be "intervalueing?"� Seems like it to me. In the words of Chilean neuroscientist/biologist/cyberneticist Humberto Maturana " Living systems...[are] organized in a closed causal circular process that allows for evolutionary change in the way circularity is maintained, but not in the loss of the circularity itself." In a predominantly entropic world, living systems are preserved and evolve in complexity and Dynamic versatility as the world around them decays into the minimal organization provided by local gravity. Of course, living systems must continually extract order from their surroundings by allowing energy and material to pass through their system. One of the best sources for order is ....SURPRISE!!!!  other living systems.  As such, some living systems dynamically evolved the ability to consume others, and others developed the ability to defend against being consumed.  An anti-entropic arms race ensued, where living systems dynamically gained  versatile new forms of consumption and defense...cellular walls, propulsion, cellular wall penetration mechanisms.......you get the point. One particularly successful strategy for a living cell was to combine forces with other cells into an "intervalueing" relationship.  A multi-cellular life system continues the intervalueing process up to the next level.� Cells combine together and cooperate into another win/win situation.� Additional complexity, division of resources and specialization can all come out of this relationship. In addition, one hi-Quality strategy to defend against these cooperative coalitions of cells is to also form a competing coalition of cells (obviously, evolutionary strategies are statistical in nature, not conscious).  Another evolutionary arms race of complexity occurs, this time toward higher Quality forms of cooperation and versatility.  DQ in action again!  This time leading to skin, organs, legs, wings, eyes, brains, etc, etc. JoVo, is this another example that meets your intervalueing system requirements? Note that the driver toward chemical and cellular intervaluation is entropy and death.  The negative face of quality is what leads to those in self-supporting loops to survive and flourish as others dissappear. Again, this is fully in agreement with Pirsig's writings, though again my terminology in many places is conventional rather than MOQish.. Q3) SOCIAL: WHY DOES SOCIAL COOPERATION, ORDER AND COMPLEXITY EVOLVE FROM SELFISH INDIVIDUAL BIOLOGICAL QUALITY? BROAD ANSWER -- Quality/value SPECIFIC ANSWER --  I have run out of time.  Let me know your thoughts and responses on the above JoVo (and everybody else) and if anyone is interested, I will continue. Risky Rog