To Roger and all (with a PS to Bo and Platt) Finally my busy November ended, so I hope I have more time for the discussion. Even if the TV has this evening in program a movie by one my favorites directors (Pedro Almodovar), I answer to you "old" post on intellectual level. Hope you forgive my little delay..... ROGER ==> 1) Patterns are simplifications derived from the complex stream of experience. All life attends to and selects and simplifies experience into those patterns of most importance. Moving black dot = food for a frog. Electric can opener sound = food for my cat. MARCO ==> Not only life, I guess. The inorganic world also "simplifies experience" and behaves according to patterns. But if you are using "life" also for the inorganic level, we agree. ROGER ==> 2) The intellectual processes known as science, logic, math, philosophy, etc. are the systematic processes of discovering, creating, or testing patterns. These processes were developed out of society and refined through the combined learnings of some of the greatest minds of all time, including Aristotle, Galileo, Kepler, Descartes and Popper. (Unfotunately, until recently they have tended to follow SOM to the core) MARCO ==> OK. I agree on your list of processes, but it's the "etc." which can be a little problem. If I add to your list of minds also Pablo Picasso, do you agree? (more about Art and Picasso below) ROGER ==> 3) Intellectual patterns are those that have been created and "proven" via these systematic intellectual processes. MARCO ==> Intellectual patterns created by intellectual processes. A tautology. Of course true, but it doesn't add a lot, here. ROGER==> 4) Intellectual patterns can be applied to the other levels. Indeed, this was their original purpose. MARCO==> hmmmm ...IMO when intPoVs are applied to reality the relation which is established is purely intellectual. That is: when science (for example, biology) studies animals, the relation is intellectual. The platypus (animal) studied by science is not really a bioPoV, it's an intPoV. Intellect is able only to interact with "links to", or "description of" reality, and these links and descriptions are intellectual. The same happens also at the other levels. For example, when Q-society applies to "things" like sex, or nutrition (mainly biological), it interacts with them only by means of social patterns. So we have social rituals to interact with reality (weddings, conviviality and so on). I don't see huge differences between the levels. At every level, patterns are there just to be applied to ( to interact with ) all universe, by means of their typical behaviors. The main differences reside in the tools they use, and consequently in the kind of SQ created. ROGER ==> Note that the intellectual level is directly related to the pattern forming process and the systematic ART of distinguishing the Quality of a pattern. What distinguishes a good pattern? Below are some of the commonly recognized features of good intellectual/scientific theories: SIMPLIFICATION -- One key characteristic is in its ability to SIMPLIFY -- to compress data into a usable form. In the words of physicist/metaphysicist David Deutsch: “One comparatively simple and comprehensible theory can cover an infinity of indigestible facts.” The philosophic term for this quality in science is "Occam's razor". All other things being equal, a good pattern should avoid unnecessary complications, should be universal rather than particular to a certain place or time, it should be relatively easy to apply and devoid of extraneous baggage. Aesthetically, it should be elegant, not held together with chewing-gum and string. VERSATILITY -- Another quality is a pattern's VERSATILITY. For example, how many different ways can a pattern be used? How adaptable is the pattern to other environments or circumstances? Science, math, philosophy and metaphysics are full of examples of how patterns from different fields are found to have applications in ways never imagined when the meme/pattern was first formulated. TRUTH -- Another feature of a quality pattern that is widely recognized in all intellectual patterns is TRUTH. This is covered extensively in the writings of James and Pirsig. In SOM, truth often means objective laws that float out there like some idealistic platonic form. In the MOQ, we know that truth "is one species of good" that involves a pattern's correlation with experience and other patterns. In the famous words of James: "Realities are not true, they ARE; and beliefs are true of them." Intellectual patterns also need to correlate with other theories or other intellectual patterns. James writes extensively on how new intellectual patterns can sometimes conflict with other theories and beliefs. He explains how we adjust our beliefs and graft the new one in a way that minimizes disturbance to our basic belief structure while also encompassing the new pattern. Pirsig and James also refer to this as "harmony". MEASURABILITY/TESTABILITY -- Another characteristic of a good intellectual pattern is its testability. Good theories are usually measurable, quantifiable and falsifiable. A falsifiable scientific theory is always chosen over an equal but unfalsifiable one. RELEVENCE -- Remember Pirsig's example of the biology professor's application for research grants? James calls this pragmatism, and built an entire philosophy around it. I recommend every MOQ'er be familiar with James. Based upon the above qualities, science, philosophy, logic, math etc have evolved through the process of evolutionary epistimology as espoused by Karl Popper. (Blackmore would call it a special case of memetic evolutionary theory). MARCO ==> I agree on Occam's razor and so on.... You offer a perfect description of western science. But where is the evidence that western science is the whole intellect? IMO this is only an assumption (btw, you are not far from Bo's SOLAQI). For example, I already offered in the past the example of Picasso's Guernica. I can learn from that about the Spanish war more than from any scientific description. The state of mind of people immersed in the tragedy of a war is REAL, and it's expressed (explained and communicated) better by means of a single picture than by means of tons of simplified-versatile-testable scientific studies. And my intellectual philosophical beliefs about war, socialism, fascism, justice... can be strongly influenced by that picture (or by a movie, a novel, and so on). Sometimes with more effectiveness than any scientific or philosophical book. ROGER ==> IN SUMMARY: The intellectual level concerns a systematic methodology to create better and better patterns out of reality. It also applies to the patterns that are derived through this process. MARCO ==> Firstly, for what I wrote above, IMO the creation of better and better patterns out of reality is not exclusively intellectual. It has been so for millennia (and maybe it is still) also at the other levels. Secondly, the Picasso example I offered challenges you to find how is it possible that my intellect is influenced by art. Both in your and Bo's assumptions, Picasso is a Platypus. My attempt is to glimpse a possible development of intellect out of the trap of scientific method. In order to complete it: I'm not the enemy of intellect (like Bo seems to be), I'm just arguing that what you are calling intellect is only the first step of something that has unexploited possibilities. After all, science has been mainly developed during the social age, and intellectual patterns have been selected in order to survive in a precise social environment. That's why science is very good to build bridges, while it's a disaster to describe my state of mind. Maybe you are like the biologist of the paleozoic age which argues that multicellular life is the best possible form of evolved biology. My attempt to put aesthetic-artistic patterns within the same frame of scientific-methodologic-rational patterns points to the (maybe utopic) purpose of an intellect which is able to provide both knowledge and beauty. ROGER ==> In memetic terms, the intellectual level involves the evolution of the best memetic processes to discover, create and test other memes. Math, science, logic and philosophy all involve the systematic development and study of memetic pattern creation. Theories, theorems and postulates are simplified intellectual models that allow us to identify, learn, categorize, record and apply our experience. Through this methodology, higher quality ideas evolve. Please let me know your thoughts, Roger MARCO ==> Hope I did tks for reading Marco p.s. To Platt and Bo: I've just read your posts. Hope I can answer soon. (Maybe I partially answered to Platt's in this post). MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/ MD Queries - [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at: http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
