Quoting Arlo Bensinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > [Arlo previously] > An interesting point of agreement? Although I am tempted to ask, what > ethics are you ready to accept from the Indians? > > [Platt] > Kindness to children. > > [Arlo] > Err, I thought you keep reminding me how they "dashed their > children's brains out on rocks"? Or are you just funnin' me? (As my > dad used to say).
Er, not their own children, the children of their enemies. Didn't Pirsig say something about how Indians treat their children kindly? I thought I learned that from him. But, I could be wrong. > [Platt] > Tell me more about decisions based on "spirit." > > [Arlo] > Intuition. Gut feelings. Or as Pirsig quoted Einstein, "... > intuition, resting on sympathetic understanding of experience". > > [Platt] > Tell me more about decisions based on "spirit." > > [Arlo] > Maybe this should be another thread? Anyway, here is a good passage > from The Guidebook to ZMM that describes this. > > "This is the idea of intuition that you can find in the writings of > Henri Bergson (1859-1941), who described intuition with phrases like > "intellectual sympathy." It is also the idea of intuition that young > Phaedrus encountered in the writings of Albert Einstein, who said > that the universal laws of the cosmos could only be reached by > "intuition, resting on sympathetic understanding of experience" > (quoted in ZMM, p. 99). That idea would be carried forward in the > narrator's reflections (undoubtedly inspired by, if not inherited > from, Phaedrus) about the relation of Quality to caring (ZMM, pp. 25, > 247). Just as for Einstein the intuition of cosmic laws is rooted in > a sympathetic understanding of experience, so for the narrator the > intuition of Quality is rooted in caring about what one is seeing and > doing. But for the narrator the flow goes both ways. Caring-which, > you might care to note, involves both willing and feeling-is > reciprocally related to Quality. The more you care in your knowing > and doing, the more you see (or intuit) Quality. The more you intuit > Quality, the more you care. "A person who sees Quality and feels it > as he works is a person who cares. A person who cares about what he > sees and does is a person who's bound to have some characteristics of > Quality" (ZMM, p. 247). > > The second frequently made and presently pertinent statement is that > intuition is holistic. When you intuit, you see wholes in their > wholeness. In contrast, when you are engaged in an analytic mode of > thought, you seek to know things by breaking them down into parts and > subparts (or, in the narrator's terms, concepts and subconcepts-ZMM, > p. 86). The rational, analytic mode of thinkking, exemplified in > ZMM's breakdown of a motorcycle (pp. 63367), belongs to the "classic" > mentality, whereas the holistic, intuitive mode belongs to the > "romantic" mentality. In terms of ZMM's landscape analogy (pp. > 69-70), rational analysis is what you are doing when you are sorting > the handful of sand into varrious piles on the basis of various > criteria; intuition is what you are exercising when you grasp the > entire handful of sand as a whole. As the analogy suggests, one and > the same object can furnish the material for both rational analysis > and intuition. While intuition might have its own proper objects > (e.g., as some intuitionists sugggest, value), it might also share > objects with other modes of thought. You can analyze the motorcycle > in terms of its parts and functions; additionally or alternatively, > you can intuitively grasp the cycle as the "right thing" for you, a > vehicle that suits your style. In the latter case, your intuition is > still a nonsensory act of knowing, even though the motorcycle is a > sensory object-the cycle doesn't carry a visible label that says > "right thing." (Guidebook to ZMM, pp 172-173) Thanks. Spirit and spirituality (as you use the words) refer to intuition. Is that right? (The answer seems obviously "Yes," but just to be sure . . .) > [Platt] > Haven't you said all language is metaphor? What then is the relation > of language to pre-language (pre-intellectual)experience (perception). > > [Arlo] > All language is metaphor. However, "laws" are "literal", meaning that > we pragmatically accept a shared understanding of what a "law" says. > But, even given this, lawyers debate endless on what any given "law means", > no? Right. I think you've hit the bullseye with the idea of "meaning." I snipped the following from the NY Times book section a long time ago: "Meaning, not raw facts, is what humanity seeks, and society is a collection of kits and codes for processing raw facts into meaning. Ordering is one of the simplest and most durable human methods for making and finding meaning. Take a variety of things and put them in some kind of relations, a simple sequence, a taxonomy, a hierarchy or a cause and effect patterns, say, and the make sense, apparently for not better reason than the tautological one that order and relationship are felt by human beings to be meaningful So extensive are its charts, tables, structures and classification systems that culture can be said to be composed of an extensive series of interlocking schemes of order. The ultimate aim of society might well be viewed . . . as assembling all these individual systems into a master system of knowledge, a unified field not of physical forces but of culture." In short, metaphors are patterns that give our direct perceptions meaning. > [Platt] > Your introduction above and here of "spirit" leaves me wondering. > What is spirit, where did it come from, who created it, and how can I get > some? > > [Arlo] > Try joining a drumming circle. :-) Or, look up silently at the stars. Less energy, less cost and possible same spiritual outcome. :-) But, the questions remain. ------------------------------------------------- This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/ moq_discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
