Ham, Objectivism is not Ayn Rand, and Ayn Rand is not Objectivism. This is not religion, where an authority figure is the system, such as christianity and the like - and by the way religion is an example of social quality, nothing more. Objectivism is a logical system, based on the fact that reality is objective, not primary. An Objectivist Club (Ayn Rand Institute) is an oxymoron. Objectively, reality cannot be shown to exist independent of humans. To say reality exists without humans is an assumption, which is not objective.
"Nothing can be shown to exist independent of humans" is an objective statement. It is fact. Micah -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Ham Priday Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 11:42 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [MD] Dawkins a Materialist (is watching?) Hi Micah -- In your 'first nugget' on Objectivism, you say: > As you can clearly see Rand states that existence > is objective, not primary. No, I don't clearly see this. Ayn Rand was quite emphatic in defining existence as primary. This is implicit in her choice of the title 'Objectivism' to name her philosophy. Here, for example, are a couple of statements clearly supporting the ideology that reality is objective, and therefore primary: Summarizing her philosophy in 1962, the author said: "My philosophy, Objectivism, holds that: Reality exists as an objective absolute - facts are facts, independent of man's feelings, wishes, hopes or fears." Again, in a précis on the basic principles of Objectivism, the Ayn Rand Institute provides the following outline of her Metaphysics: "Reality, the external world, exists independent of man's consciousness, independent of any observer's knowledge, beliefs, feelings, desires or fears. This means that A is A, that facts are facts, that things are what they are-and that the task of man's consciousness is to perceive reality, not to create or invent it." Thus Objectivism rejects any belief in the supernatural-and any claim that individuals or groups create their own reality." -- http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=objectivism_essentials What this says to me is that the existence of the external world is an indisputable fact, and that consciousness (i.e., the intellect) has no active part in constructing it. How can you turn these statements around to support your thesis that "nothing can be shown to exist independent of humans"? Curiously, Ham moq_discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ moq_discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
