[Bo] What's "your ongoing dilemma regarding the "level"? [Case] My problem succinctly put is: "Why bother?"
[Bo] Problems only occurs when one looks on the MOQ from its own static intellectual level which - according to Magnus (and most people) "reflects all levels including itself". The 4th level is the SOM and thus the level system becomes distorted into its notorious S/O shape; Intellect becomes a knowing mind and the lower levels become the scientific "branches of knowledge" and this creates dilemmas and platypis galore. [Case] The whole point of 'levels' is to set up a framework for understanding the world around us. There are plenty of ways to do this. Pirsig offers us one. Freud, Jung, Kant, Hegel, Marx in fact everybody and their brother offer up others. Such schemes are metaphorical and sometimes they make sense and sometimes they don't. Problems I have with this particular set of metaphors are that first Pirsig claims they are distinct. They are not. Carbon atoms and viruses blur the distinction between the first two levels. Bee colonies and coral reefs blur the distinctions between biology and culture and no one have given a coherent account of the distinction between the social and intellectual. Beyond that, the idea of a distinct "level" a ladder or set of stairs is simply too Euclidian for my taste. Nothing or at least very little in nature is composed of straight lines and geometric figures. There are lots of branches in nature through at the inorganic, biological, social and intellectual levels. Branches and branches of branches, networks of interdependency. This is a much better metaphor to my way of thinking. [Bo] But we are supposed to see things from the MOQ which has intellect as a mere static level, the highest and best, but as blind to the overall Quality context as the rest - the blindest in fact. "Language and ideas"?? When was THAT declared intellect's characteristics? Didn't people of old have ideas about their world and expressed them by language? [Case] The only halfway sensible definition of the intellectual level I have seen was Arlo's symbolic representation. The history of the past 12,000 years has been the amplification and extension of this through writing and printing. You got a better short answer than that? [Bo} Why must this nonsense be repeated again and again and always by people who has the least interest in the MOQ? [Case] What is this supposed to mean? Who are these people? moq_discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
