Ron, No axe to grind with anyone. I'm not working on a commission here.
Sorry, the second statement "how can you show objective reality is primary, objectively - without humans." leads to the first "objective reality can not be proven to exist outside (or without, or independent of) humans, it is a fact." Existence exists, but not without humans. Or, reality exists objectively, but only in the presence of humans. Or, humans are reality and reality is human. The "clutter" is the closely held assumption or should I say belief, that anything can be shown to exist without humans such as god, or time, or space. Once you can swallow that, then all is possible from miracles to time travel - but reality is not what you believe, it is much less. When you ask "what caused me", I'll assume you mean existence is general, to which I will reply "I don't know and may never know." Micah -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Ron Kulp Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 1:53 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [MD] Micah [x] lets start this from the beginning. this is the quote that started it all: "objective reality can not be proven to exist outside humans, it is a fact." -Micah then you switched it to: "how can you show objective reality is primary, objectively - without humans." forcing me to take a stance on objective reality being primary where originally you stated that "objective reality does not exist, it is a fact." I never made the claim that objective reality is primary though your original stand on subjective reality is absolute for it is "fact" and you defy anyone to prove otherwise and for anyone to insinuate any different had "clutter" which you are immune to as an athiest. assuming you are correct and objective reality does not exist, where did you come from? what caused you? certainly nothing objective, did you cause yourself into being, already aware with intellect and knowledge to create the percieved objective illusion? where did you get such knowledge? this logic goes two ways, solopism or theism. which you claim to be niether. thus the confusion. sincerely -x moq_discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ moq_discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
